fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #426 ]

[ SECRET POST #426 ]

⌈ Secret Post #426 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 67 secrets from Secret Submission Post #061.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] too big.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I feel the exact same way about Narnia's The Last Battle but for some reason never really felt the same disappointment with His Dark Materials. For one thing, I guess I never saw it as anti-religious/belief/spirituality but just that the religion in that particular circumstance came under the branch of as you call it, oppression and orthodoxy. It's too bad that something's ruined your enjoyment of the books though, I do hate it when external stuff affects me like that.

Well, in this case, it's the author himself announcing that he basically intended the books as atheist propaganda -- that's what the OP of 53 is referring to.

No, I don't think so. I'm aware he's written stuff criticising the Narnia books for indoctrinating children's minds into what he sees as subservience and unquestioning belief from a young age, and I don't agree with him, but I don't think that he wrote them just for propagandistic purposes. If anything, I think he was trying to rejuvenate the theories and stories of Blake and other Romantics/Millenarians for a younger generation. Besides, authorial intent is still external and tangential to enjoying the books. I think atheist propaganda is a bit too reductionist to do justice to the story, but then again, I can see how his intent would be so irritating to people that they'd dismiss it as such, religion being the holy cow it is. ;)

I don't consider religion to be a "holy cow" at all. :/ In fact, I'm perfectly okay with criticizing it, with exploring alternatives, etc etc

But when people outright attack faith in general because they believe that it is STUPID and WRONG and ONLY DUMB PEOPLE BELIEVE blah blah blah, I get pretty pissy, and it seems that's what Pullman was trying to do--even if that's not the way the books came off to me at first.

Disliking it when people act like dismantling all religion would be them doing the world a great big favor =/= treating religion as a holy cow

Sorry if that flippant sacred cow thing came off like I was dismissing your points as reactionary, I didn't mean it to come off that way and was only trying to end my post on a light note. If you'll allow me to clarify what I meant: I do think that people concentrate on the words he uses in his interviews rather than the meaning behind them and that I attribute to our idea of religion as being this pre-established, preconfigured institution. We see the words religion, atheist, belief etc. and automatically jump to our own, heavily personalised understandings of these concepts and then proceed to discuss them without ever clarifying exactly what they mean or which aspects we're focusing on. Theology is just so complicated and weird and headsplodey that I understand why this is necessary to stave off hours of debate foreplay, but it gets even more mired when people are using words like 'attack on religion' and 'atheist propaganda' to mean completely different, morally variable things especially in the context of a story which is trying to deconstruct (not particularly originally) and play with Christian mythology. We're fine with talking about religion within its existing context as a global power/unifier/diaspora but when faced with a possibility of its defeat like what Pullman writes, it's suddenly simply a case of authorial bashing? (and I'm talking here about the books, not his interviews, which are interesting to understanding the creative process that lead to the books, but not necessarily crucial to discussing the multiple thematic threads within the stories themselves IMO. I think we may differ on this point.)

But to address those interviews anyway. There seems to be some prevalent idea, caused by snippets of conversation presented by the media or from hearsay, that he's some raving fundamentalist atheist and well he may be. However, most of the time, I think he's just a belligerent academic who's more used to people talking back to him, rather than speaking into a void like the media and coming across as an authority, and therefore is used to announcing more dramatic comments to spark conversation. He has mellowed over the years, it seems, as he learns more about presenting himself as a public figure. Except when it comes to CS Lewis. *sigh* I think that this whole idea that he's attacking religion and deriding the believers has been blown way out of proportion, partially because of those confusing factors I described above, and his comments so often go by unquestioned and are instead taken as superficial bashing.

And I might not agree with him, but I do think that for a book published at the cusp of the New Millenium 2000, the idea of dismantling obstructive preconceptions is an interesting idea. And as I said before, it's not like everything within the HDM multiverse is wiped away since there's a clear spiritual structure happening with the cycle of dust, creativity and human legacy.

Oh man I love when people get all academic in fandom. <3 That was pretty awesome.

Thank you muchly! :) Ahaha, I have to sheepishly admit that whenever I come across opinions I disagree with in fandom though, my conversation starts sliding into the world of wanky academia since it seems to largely consist of people writing theories of great lengths on various texts without ever actually expressing an opinion and that's easier to deal with than sitting woobie faced while people repeatedly deflate my little bubble of fannish devotion with their pricks of insight.

atheist propaganda

Or a counter-weight to the Jesus factor in Narnia, I believe (nice loaded language, there). There was an interview somewhere where he stated that the whole Lyra = Eve deal was a direct reaction to the way the oldest girl in the Narnia books was treated by Lewis after she became interested in boys :/

And by the way, I hope that didn't come off like I was saying "STFU&STFD! UR WRONG" because it was more just a general musing on where I think his intent lay and a response to those accusations that lots of people have flung at him.

Well, there's no musing needed. Pullman said directly "I'm trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief" (in a Washington Post interview in 2001 about the HDM trilogy). That's pretty explicit, I'd say.

But in the same article he "acknowledge[s] that a controversy would be likely to boost sales" so I'm thinking he was probably doing it to get a rise out of people. But then, I suppose he does undermine many tenets of Christian belief: the sovereignty of God, the existence of God as the omniscient creator, the tragedy of humankind's fall from grace, the existence of an afterlife, but I think that just because he might have written all this with a giant poster plastered in front of his face screaming "Undermine Christian Belief At All Turns!" doesn't devalue the huge amount of structured belief that stems from the story. And I just think it's a shame when people allow petty remarks from the author that can't even encompass the complexity of the books to direct their judgement of the story. It's their choice, certainly, but well, I guess what I'm rambling on about is that there are interpretations that can find a balance between "fantasy EPIC" and "atheist manifesto."

It's hard to tell because it's so small, but is that a Gyo Fujikawa illustration in your icon? I may be way off... If it is, so much <3

Hee! I so love your icon. Everyone in Soul Society should get drunk at Rangiku's place more often.

And alas, it's not Gyo Fujikawa. Although thank you for giving me another children's illustrator to search around for. It's Ezra Jack Keats who did a lot of collage work for children's books. Here's a clearer view of the picture (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y153/west-of-the-moon/agnes%20perdita/backga.png)

That picture is so lovely up close. The style is very reminiscent of Gyo Fujikawa. If you are into children's illustrators, I definitely recommend checking out Gyo Fujikawa.

I very much agree with you here - both Pullman and Lewis say some pretty silly and antagonistic things about their books, but it doesn't take away the beauty of them for me (except I've only ever read The Last Battle once because I found it so disturbing and wrong).

Pullman encouraged exploration and wonder in his books, including in religion - it's the "oppression and orthodoxy" that is despised. It's the behaviour of all the religious people who try to use their beliefs to control others, from the religious anti-abortionists to my best friend in high school who worried I was going to Hell, not the beauty, kindness, sincerity and art of religious expression.

I'm glad I didn't come across like a Lewis basher with my dislike for The Last Battle because I agree with you completely about how magical his books can be.

And yes! That's a great way of putting it and it's pretty much what I took away from the book too. Pullman tries for an adventure story about the potential transformation of belief as a controlling, authority that asks its followers to cower in shame. There's lots you could say about it and about whether his final 'Republic of Heaven' would work or not, but ultimately, it's a highly positive, affirmation to end on and not achieved through the debasement of 'God.' Anyway, preaching to the choir and all that. ;) Should just ask though if those are the 12 Apostles in your icon there? They look so much like them, so I must assume that you're Australian/Victorian like myself? :D

My icon is indeed the 12 Apostles, because I live quite near them. *waves to fellow Victorian* I considered them especially appropriate to the discussion as they used to be called "The Sow and Pigs" but were re-named to bring the tourists!

Haha, I had no idea! Ooh dear, what a lark. Actually, I'm not sure if The Sow and the Pigs wouldn't have been a hit with the tourists, they could come under the misinterpretation that it was a noted historical site with a famed English style pub. Surely that too would have its appeal?

And I friended you if you don't mind. It's fun having people on the frienslist reference various goings-on that I'm actually familiar with beyond a standard wikipedia/guardian/nytimes search.

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[ SECRET POST #426 ]

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