[ SECRET POST #3468 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3468 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 51 secrets from Secret Submission Post #496.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[blitzwing]

The whole Sue debate is really unnecessary. What it comes down to is is the writer writing good characters or not?

The whole Sue term only exists because people were creating so many of the same kind of bad character, reducible to a simple, easily re-used template. Then some numbnuts feminists had to jump up and champion it as some glorious example of female expression!!!! because it's mostly girls writing that kind of bad character.

Sporking/mocking fics in general is kind of a douchebag thing to do. It doesn't make the sporked/mocked fics well-written though.

Champion writing well-developed characters, and ignore/tolerate the existent of self-indulgent poorly-written characters. Or politely critique them.

[(Anonymous)]

What - ultimately - is the problem with someone writing bad fiction, though, if they enjoy it or find it cathartic

[blitzwing]

There is no problem with it. That's why I said one should tolerate it/ignore it, not do what amounts to bullying and shaming over it.

[(Anonymous)]

Then why did you have all that stuff about numb-nut feminists being awful and causing loads of problems, if you agree with the fundamental point they were actually making

[blitzwing]

Because I don't agree with the point they were making. Sues aren't glorious, and they're not good writing, and they're not especially deserving of being championed. And they certainly aren't being criticized because of the patriarchy, lmao. They're criticized because they're bad writing.

[(Anonymous)]

As I take it the points that feminists were making about Mary Sues in fiction was:

1) It's an enjoyable thing to do and it helps people figure out how they're going which is good

2) That's particularly valuable in a patriarchal society that tends to be at least a little inimical to female imagining

3) Sometimes people criticize Mary Sues more than they would equivalent male fantasies, and that's dumb if so

[blitzwing]

Nope to 1 and 2. 3, if by it you mean "Hey, people write shitty male Mary Sues in fiction all the time! So female ones should be equally accepted!"

And I quote: "Why should female characters have to be realistic, while male characters have all the fun?"

Yeah, cause the problem with Mary Sues is that they're not realistic. /eyeroll. It couldn't be because after the umpteenth SparkleMoon Prettyshine who's half dragon angel demon elf and has blue, black, and pink striped hair and psychic powers, it gets old.

Or another one I liked "If you pare it down to its essence, a Mary Sue is simply a character who is remarkable, heroic, inspiring. Why shouldn’t we celebrate that?"

Yeah, that's exactly what a Mary-Sue is. We just can't stand remarkable inspiring women. That's why we deleted the original Mary, mother of Christ, right out of the Bible and you won't hear nothing about her these days.

If you want some examples of this "Male Sues are in pop fiction, so why shouldn't female Sues be??? we need more Mary Sues!" I've nabbed a few articles for you to peruse:

We Need More Mary Sues.

Call the Character Police! We've got a Mary Sue!

What’s So Wrong With Being a Mary Sue?

Mind you, these are not people arguing that pimply 14-year old girls should be able to write their half dragon half demon angel elf sparkledog girl in peace--they're arguing that we need more Mary Sue style characters in popular fiction.

Maybe next time you should believe me when I say I'm responding to X, instead of going "Hey I know better than that person what they're referring to, I bet you were really talking about Y & Z weren't you?"

totally rude.

[feotakahari]

This gets me thinking. Do Lord-of-Dorkness ow-the-edge characters (typically created by male fans) get mocked as much as pure sparklypoos (typically created by female fans?) I'm inclined to say yes, in which case I agree with you that gender isn't the specific problem.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the answer to that question has varied greatly at different times during the 40 years since 'Mary Sue'. I agree that gender isn't the specific problem right now but I think there are times when it was a very valid, relevant point.

[(Anonymous)]

I can think of some examples of male characters often cited as examples of Sues or showing Sue-like qualities - Edward Cullen and Eragon most prominently.

[(Anonymous)]

Drizzt Do'urden.

But Drizzt was also popular for a long time.

[(Anonymous)]

I cited Eragon and Edward largely because they were mocked as Stus pretty much right away by noticeable swathes of fans with large communities dedicated to making fun of them.

I do agree that female characters get accused of being Sues more often - some really are Sues but others are not, or have Sue-like qualities that would be more likely to go unnoticed in male characters.

[(Anonymous)]

Drizzt always had a lot of fans, but people have also been making fun of Drizt - and especially of cheap Drizzt knock-offs - for ages.

[(Anonymous)]

Harry Keogh used to be cited as a major author's Marty Stu in the later Necroscope novels. Lumley went full on godmode with him.

[ketita]

Sometimes yes, but then you get characters like Kvothe in the Name of the Wind, who is such a Sue I think that from now on we should call them Kvothes, and people love that book and that character. So clearly it's still going with male characters too.

[(Anonymous)]

Here's mockery of the male version from the skews-male SCP site: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-10101-j

[(Anonymous)]

Both can be obnoxious but a true Sue, regardless of gender, can feel too well done. It's one thing to read the author's power fantasy. It's another thing to see the author IN the fantasy. That's when it gets creepy to me.

But over-powered/perfect/loved/tortured characters are obnoxious no matter what.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow! You just keep going out out your way to piss people off, don't you, blitzwing?

[blitzwing]

I don't have to go out of my way to piss people off, but I do have to go very far out of my way to *not* piss people off.

[(Anonymous)]

I have to say while my phrasing would not have been as harsh I actually--shockingly--agree with them here.

Mary Sues don't need to be reclaimed as solid original writing; male characters need to be less simplified as flawless quick-study badasses.