fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #450 ]

[ SECRET POST #450 ]

⌈ Secret Post #450 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 395 secrets from Secret Submission Post #065.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 ] argument has been going on forever.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I admit I like Gavincest better than Dollie/Iris. This is actually because I find both Dahlia and IRis incredibly weak, flat, uninteresting characters, and the only dynamic they have at all is Iris loving Dahlia and thinking she is FLAWED and SWEET and JUST NEEDS LOVE. There's nothing on Dahlia's end besides bitterness, and badly-portrayed bitterness at that.

Kristoph/Klavier both has a suggestion of familial love and a suggestion of something being very wrong on a psychological level. Klavier reacts to Kristoph like someone who has been emotionally manipulated. But at the same time, you can tell he loves Kristoph, and there's more feeling toward Klavier from Kristoph than there ever was from Dahlia toward Iris, imho.

But what do I know, I thought T&T and Apollo Justice were actually the weakest games in the series.

But what do I know, I thought T&T and Apollo Justice were actually the weakest games in the series.

Amen.

I've just come to accept that nothing is going to live up to the magic of the first game. Apollo Justice actually came really close, in the first two cases, but case 3 and 4 were so badly-constructed that it spoiled things for me, very similarly to how T&T's anticlimactic ending spoiled the rest of that game for me. (Though 3-3 did a lot of that on its own, too.)

Additionally, Dahlia is a massively overrated villain.

I enjoyed 4-4 a great deal more than I did 3-5 if anything because it was the first case to make me shit bricks in a while (see: the use of the Perceive System on the back of Kristoph's hand holy fuck) though it did suffer from the same lackluster final confrontation and plot inconsistencies that plagued T&T.

Also agreed on Dahlia. I could probably chime in with the fandom's hatred of her had her victims not composed of unsympathetic and lovesick idiots.

4-4 did have a lot more "holy shit" moments. I spoiled myself for the case a bit, but the black Psyche-locks and Kristoph's hand still indeed took me aback. There were just so many loopholes, the Mason system only made sense if you had a very high threshold on your suspension of disbelief, and there was no final confrontation. Even T&T handled the confrontation better, I thought, because you still had the "final" piece of evidence, even if it was incredibly easy to figure out. Apollo Justice had the envelope, which ultimately did nothing, and you got to choose your own ending. There's no triumphant "I did it, hah, take that" like there was in the other games. Even presenting Godot's mask was more thrilling and involving, and while 3-5 on the whole was more disappointing than 4-4, I felt more accomplished when I found Godot out than when I found Kristoph out.

Edited 2008-03-31 00:18 (UTC)

Replay PW3. The scene where Dahlia is pretending to be Iris and talking about Dahlia (as Iris) becomes *hugely* more interesting once you know what's going on.

Dahlia does seem to care about Iris in her own, twisted way. And Iris *knows* that Dahlia's evil, and *still* goes along with her plans because she feels she's betrayed her.

And feeling from Kristoph towards Klavier? Never got that.

I have replayed that case two or three times, and I still find it uninteresting, badly-written, and dull. I still have next to no sympathy for either of them, and I still find Dahlia a massively overrated villain.

I don't think Klavier and Kristoph are tons better -- just better, and that's something. I mostly see them for the suggestions of the past, which is something that isn't heavily talked about with Dahlia and Iris, or where it is, not given as much weight as it deserves.

I actually think that both pairs of siblings are flat and boring when it comes to interaction. For Dahlia and Iris, the only information we get is what we can infer from what they say to others; we never actually see them interact in-game. The Gavins do interact, it's just that I find their relationship to be, well, lacking. Throughout the game, Klavier NEVER brings up how he feels about Kristoph being in jail. There is a little bit of interaction with them at the end, but it doesn't get nearly the amount of depth or screentime it should have.

I understand what you mean by Klavier loving Kristoph, but I never felt Kristoph's feelings toward Klavier. The impression I got was that he was distant towards him, and treated him more like a pawn than a brother. Some backstory as to WHY he treated him like that would have been nice, but then again,it's AJ we're talking about.

And I totally agree that AJ and T&T were the weakest games in the series. Body pendulum in 3-5? Time paradox in 4-4? WTF?!

Yeah, I totally understand what you mean for both sibling pairs. I guess I just find the Gavins more interesting, which is just a matter of personal opinion, when you get down to it. But both games were certainly very clumsy in communicating the sibling relationships. I ended up very unfond of Kristoph in the same way I was very unfond of Dahlia; the difference between the two is that Klavier's reactions to Kristoph felt more real and interesting than Iris' SHE IS HUMAN SHE JUST NEEDS A HUG with Dahlia.

And I could have overlooked the time paradox if the last case had been exciting in the least. Instead I present a piece of evidence that ultimately does nothing, wade through half an hour of text, and then choose my own ending. What is that? Give me a moment of triumph like I had in the other games. Honestly.

It's true that Klavier did seem more human when dealing with his brother than when Iris was talking about her sister. I just wish the relationships between the Gavins got more screentime than it did. There were so many opporotunities for development, too...

The final case had so many issues with it, but I think the main problem was the general lack of epicness. It was the first game in a new trilogy, and Phoenix basically does everything by himself when it should have been Apollo's time to shine. Also, the final trial itself had no plot twists whatsoever becuase you basically know everything beforehand from the Mason System! I know people keep saying its unfair to compare it with the Phoenix trilogy which had three games while AJ only had one, but I still think that AA alone was far superior. I really don't think any of the games (JF and T&T included) could match up to that one (parrot cross examinations ftw!)

I think the biggest flaw of AJ and T&T's final cases was that their lead characters both had their spotlights taken away from them in favor of another character. With T&T it was Godot, and with AJ it was, ironically, Phoenix.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Gavins needed more screentime. Kristoph alone needed more, honestly; in my opinion there should have been a different first case, with 4-1 being the second, in order to establish Kristoph's nice guy persona and actually shock us when he ends up a killer. 4-4 didn't do itself any favors by giving away that it was Kristoph in the opening "movie."

Lack of epicness is exactly the way to describe it. I think playing through Phoenix losing his badge was fine, but that's where it should have ended. The Mason system pulled all the attention away from Apollo and played like fanservice. While it probably was fanservice, I was annoyed by it. I'm not in Phoenix's head anymore. I'm in Apollo's, and the case should reflect that. We should have been able to puzzle out some of the things on our own, there should have been at least another day of investigation (honestly, Capcom, three-day cases, give them back!) and as you said, knowing everything beforehand thanks to the Mason system spoiled uncovering Kristoph as the psycho he was. There was no moment where I went "Hah!" aloud like I had in the other games. I was honestly quite bored.

AA is the best of the games, even (actually, especially) 1-5. The cases just have an epic feel to them, while still maintaining the sense of underlying story and intrigue. The metal detector remains the best example of how a final showdown should be done, and Gant is one of my favorite villains, because he's crazy and dangerous and self-serving while at the same time not being shallow or flat or uninteresting. And 1-5 just has a great story, too. Chronologically, it's not he last, but I kind of think of it as the true "last case" of the first three games, since it was written after all the others.

And this is why Skyecest is the best.

(Also: signed.)

Or Mineycest :B

... though I suppose it's easier when they're both alive.

Whoa, never even thought of Mineycest. Do want...or would want, I should say.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #450 ]

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