Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2016-07-04 06:35 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2016-07-04 06:35 pm
[ SECRET POST #3470 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3470 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 35 secrets from Secret Submission Post #496.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 05:11 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 05:25 am (UTC)(link)Lol okay, even if we disregard all the actual trans masculine people writing these headcanons and fics, why are you so insistent on calling it a "fetish"? Frankly it sounds like you're using the word fetish to legitimize or otherwise cast these fics in a negative light.
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Maybe cause there are a ton of people out there that fetishize trans people? And trying to cover up for them and erase that isn't going to change that?
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 05:43 am (UTC)(link)Except I'm a trans man, and like I point out in the comment down below, this is a bullshit way of bringing politics into fanfiction where people write shit to get their rocks off (I won't talk about all the SFW trans fic since it seems to be the ~sexytimes~ setting off most people in this thread). The people writing trans fics and the people who "chase" guys like me, and girls like my girlfriend, they're not the same people by and large. There's a world of difference between the girl who writes some trans!Genos One Punch Man fanfiction and the queer girl "allies" who treat me like I'm Man Lite because of my genitals and project all their fucking weird male gender baggage onto me because they see me as a "safe" alternative, or the gay guys who see me as an erotic novelty and start an online conversation with "so, u like getting ur pussy fucked with a big fat dick?" before they even so much as give a 'hello'.
Like I said in other comments, it devolves into thinly veiled transphobia every time this comes up. Please, anybody who thinks they're "helping" by saying trans headcanons are "shit" are just being fucking transphobic. If you want to help trans people, maybe talk about the shitload of real life fetishization that goes on to actual trans people and stop worrying about the fact that somebody dared to write Captain America with a cunt and needing to call the fandom police on them.
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Most headcanons in general are shit. Trans headcanons don't get an exception to that, and it's not transphobic to point that out. Although OP didn't even trash on trans headcanons in general.
Maybe you don't find most of them creepy, gender essentialist and fetishistic, but that doesn't make it invalid when other people feel that way.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 06:09 am (UTC)(link)It's transphobic to point it out because I literally never see anyone say "most headcanons in general are shit" (except for you right here and right now as a rebuttal), and you know why? 99% of fanfiction is made up of headcanons. We wouldn't have fanfiction to begin with. "Headcanons" are literally just "things that aren't covered in canon that I think about".
It's really cute that you're that naive to think that people saying "trans headcanons are shit" aren't fucking transphobic shitwads, but any time I see people bring this shit up it's usually edgy "anti-SJ" types who spend all their time making fun of people who they consider to be "SJWS", and yes, that includes trans people for simply existing while trans.
" Maybe you don't find most of them creepy, gender essentialist and fetishistic, but that doesn't make it invalid when other people feel that way. "
Well that's great because just because you feel that way doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than mine. Different trans people have different opinions on it, imagine that! Trying to act like your opinion is the "right" one is ridiculous.
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That doesn't seem like sound logic to me. Shitty/fetishy trans headcanons bother me particularly because I'm trans, and it is personally upsetting as a trans person. Not because I'm transphobic, like you say is the motive.
Some generic stupid headcanon like "My headcanon for meth-addict!Sam Winchester is that he has rotten teeth and sucks dick for meth" isn't going to bother me as much as it might someone who's struggled with meth addiction, who it may bother them much more.
Not that I'm saying you have to be of a group to be bothered by bad headcanons about that group. But there are lots of people that dislike entire subsets of headcanons, whether they're addict!headcanons, mentally-ill!headcanons, or sex-worker!headcanons, just because so many of the headcanons and fics for them are offensive or ignorant. It's not because people must hate the mentally ill, or drug addicts, or sex workers, that they're bothered by the headcanons/fics/AUs for those things.
I don't really like seeing *any* headcanons for those things because there are so many gross ones. And I tread very carefully when reading fic for them.
Well that's great because just because you feel that way doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than mine. Different trans people have different opinions on it, imagine that! Trying to act like your opinion is the "right" one is ridiculous.
Yeah I agree, but I feel like you've been doing that.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 07:02 am (UTC)(link)Again, I'm going to be honest, from my experience, most people who broadly just hate "all trans headcanons" fall into the following two groups:
1. The edgy anti-SJW. Likely to make fun of people for having trans headcanons because they think being trans is something to be made fun of. Also fond of saying things like "I identify as an attack helicopter, respect mah pronouns shitlord!" and other juvenile bullshit.
2. The person who can't get their rocks off to trans men, and are irrationally angry that trans headcanons are a thing, because that 1 trans fic takes away somehow from their bajillion fics where cis weenies touch.
Very rarely do I see people who legitimately just don't like them because they think ______ is wrong with the majority of headcanons. (And considering how diverse trans headcanons are, I'll call BS on that too, but whatever, if you want to avoid something that's absolutely no skin off my nose and completely alright to do.)
And when those people who have their own non-petty reasons for avoiding something, they don't couch it in language like "tbh _____ headcanons are shit uwu", you should know full well language like that is incendiary and meant to provoke a reaction, not a measured response of "I find myself not liking certain overarching themes I see some _____ fics, and it can be kind of hard to avoid those things because you can't explicitly tag for them, they're more of a 'theme', so I just avoid them".
"Yeah I agree, but I feel like you've been doing that. "
Then we're even, because I feel like you've been doing the same exact thing. You immediately pulled out the "what are our feelings to you, chopped liver" rhetoric because I believe you assumed I was a cis person and not another trans person, and you were trying to use emotional manipulation for me to capitulate to you on the grounds that it affects you because you're trans/non-binary (I added NB because I honestly forget if you said that or not and I don't want to be excluding if you are).
With things like this one has to assume not all trans people are a hivemind. Are there trans people who are bothered by it and have legitimate issues with it? Of course. But there are also trans people who use these fics as an outlet, a sanctuary, and a place to go to see sexy things with people who have bodies like theirs, for once not being treated like an "other" because our anatomy doesn't please the cis masses. Both of these things are valid. My issue is with tarring trans headcanons and trans fic as a whole with a very generalized, innacurate brush. Calling it as a whole "fetishistic", "gender essentialist" and whatever the third one was that you said is erasing the very large subset of trans men and trans masculine people, and trans-savvy cis people writing trans fic that does not have these elements.
Some of the things being brought up are extremely subjective too. (Ignoring the disgusting way it was said, one person brought up the "honing in on" the trans guy's genitals during sex. Here's the thing, not all trans men are genital dysphoric. In fact honestly in my time in trans communities both online and offline, I'd say a whopping half of all binary identified trans guys had little to no genital dysphoria. These guys also all had different terms they preferred. Some guys are completely cool with calling their bits "clit", "cunt", "pussy", etc. Some like a mixture of things, like perhaps "cunt" and "pussy" are alright but they'd prefer for their clit to be called a "t-cock" or simply a "dick", and some are cool with "clit" but would rather the other bit be called a "front hole", etc. Acting like it's fetishistic because someone is describing sexual anatomy in a sex fic is ridiculous, and another example of what I mean when I say the conversations happening here aren't very constructive, they're more of a chance for venting about how much they just hate those annoying tranzzzzz headcanons that invaded their cis fandoms.
In fact, honestly so far you've been the only person I've seen bringing up even halfway valid points (besides the person pointing out the binder obsession), even if I do feel you're still painting trans headcanons and fics with a very broad brush and I believe because you personally don't like them there's a bit of a push to see all or even most of them as bad. I feel like the reality of it is the same as most fanfiction. The vast majority of them are in the acceptable range, not amazing but not bad. There's some that are good. There's some that are...eh, mediocre with problems. There's some that are horrible. Then there's those few that are incredible. I think this is about the same ratio as any genre of fic.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 05:37 am (UTC)(link)In fact it's kind of obvious you're the same anon (either that or you have a fetish doppelganger) accusing people of being "trans fetishists", so I rest my case about you using the term "fetish" negatively.
So yeah, complete agreement with AYRT, there's a whole lot of trying to justify why you and a couple other anons feel trans fic is "icky", especially by laughably trying to claim that people who enjoy it are homophobes and want to write hetero sex.
I've seen zero legitimate arguments against trans fic in this thread, and this is the trans man anon. The only thing I am seeing a lot of is people slyly invalidating trans men by insinuating a whole lot of gross shit about our bodies and our genitals.
If you want to tackle problems you feel crop up within trans fics, speak to the individual authors instead of acting like it's all "fetish fic" when I think you and people like you know damn well a lot of it is written by trans people who get zero representation anywhere else and so they make their own stories. (And yes, a lot of the fics are sex stories, you know why? That's because a lot of fics period are sex stories.)
I would entertain calling trans fic "fetish fic" if you would concede that cis girls writing about cis on cis guy slash have a "obectifying gay sex fetish", and considering how much fangirls scream and cry when you bring up even the semblance of this idea, especially when gay and bi men in fandom speak about it, I highly doubt many people are going to willfully say they write slash because they have a objectifying gay sex fetish.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 06:34 am (UTC)(link)I also wrote, several times, that most or big amount of it is fetish fic. Which it is. I never said "exclusively all of it is fetish fic" but I guess if you need arguments for your perceived rightful indignation you just have to make stuff up.
And I am absolutely in agreement that a lot of slash fic is fetishing gay people. I don't think that is inherently harmful though because, as I keep repeating and you keep ignoring, I don't think a fetish is a negative thing most of the times.
And since I'm sure that was you who wrote this up there: your experiences in fandom spaces must very very limited indeed if you've never seen anyone drag on A/B/O fic.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 09:36 am (UTC)(link)Lol nah. People just don't like being called out on their transphobia. "I didn't say anything negative."
Naw hun, if you were the one referring to fangirls who like trans men because they're afraid of "icky gay sex", and implying that having sex with us is ~hetero sex dynamics~, you were being transphobic as fuck.
"And I am absolutely in agreement that a lot of slash fic is fetishing gay people. I don't think that is inherently harmful though because, as I keep repeating and you keep ignoring, I don't think a fetish is a negative thing most of the times."
Except it's being used negatively all over this thread, stop being so disingenuous, it isn't cute. Calling people "touchy trans fetishists" and saying being attracted to trans people and including them in your fic is a "fetish" is again, traaaaansphobic. You're othering and separating us from cis men because you view us as nothing more than a fetish. Here's a hint: You don't need to have a fetish to enjoy seeing trans men in fic, and writing them in there.
Lastly, I think your definition of "fetish" fic is basically "has a trans man in it and he has sex" lmfao. It's a very, very small minority of fic indeed that has the sort of objectifying, fetishy tone that I would class as someone truly fetishizing trans men (and I mean actual chaser bullshit, not "oh my god they wrote a character as trans!").
"And since I'm sure that was you who wrote this up there: your experiences in fandom spaces must very very limited indeed if you've never seen anyone drag on A/B/O fic. "
...Or maybe I don't hang around shithole places? Yeah, that could be it.
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(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2016-07-05 06:25 am (UTC)(link)