fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3474 ]

[ SECRET POST #3474 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3474 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Hide and Seek by Imogen Heap]

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02. http://i.imgur.com/8Lfgcp8.jpg
[A Game of Thrones, Tyene Sand; link because OP warned for nudity]

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03.

[Independence Day]

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04.

[Queen at Arms]

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05. [repeat]

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06. [WARNING for underage/shota]

[Boku no Pico]

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07. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]

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08. [WARNING for incest]
[WARNING for rape]

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09. [WARNING for gore, torture]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #496.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2- too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I don't agree it is a "fantastic rebuttal". It is coming off as "I'm a straight guy. I wanted to do something for brownie points and decided to change a character's sexuality to be gay to honor the actor who portrayed him. When I told the actor how much of an honor I was bestowing on him and he said it made him uncomfortable, I chose to ignore him because I know best. It's an alternative time line and I can do what I want. So there."

I agree with George. Yes it is an alternative timeline, but fundamentally the characters are all the same until the events of the first movie. Except, it seems, Sulu. I think I honestly would have had less of an issue with it if they didn't keep saying that they were doing it for George, despite the fact he doesn't want it. Straight people talk over gay and bi people all of the time and this seems like yet another example of it and it bothers me.

I'm all for more gay and bi people in stories, but this wasn't how I would like to have seen it done.

Alternate timelines totally change your sexuality. There have been studies.

I agree with George. Yes it is an alternative timeline, but fundamentally the characters are all the same until the events of the first movie.

Which officially started almost simultaneously with James Kirk's birth. (The changes in alternate Kirk's family background are never fully explained.) Almost all of the adult characters AND the Federation diverge from the original timeline in significant ways, and the premise that characters in alternate universes don't necessarily have the same sexuality has already been introduced (mirror Kira and Ezri).

SA: And as I said above, the nature of the reboot franchise beast means that we're just not going to get any original bridge characters until the new TV series.

AYRT
I don't know the characters' ages, but if they are close to the ages of the actors, Sulu is almost a decade older than Kirk. So you are telling me that genetics, prenatal exposure/experience, etc. have nothing to do with being gay. Nothing whatsoever? Because that sounds a hell of a lot like people saying being gay is a choice and people can be "turned gay".

If Sulu is supposed to be younger than Kirk somehow, maybe I would be more okay with it. I still, however, have issues with a straight guy talking over a gay guy and how dare he not recognize what an honor I'm bestowing on him, tbough.

We can't really make inferences about character age from actor age. See practically every performance of Romeo and Juliet as an example.

But, the answer to any question about "nature vs. nurture" is both. In Star Trek, science is whatever babble the writers use to explain handwavium, and differences in character sexuality across universes has already been established in DS9. Kelvin Spock isn't TOS Spock or TOS Movie Spock except in superficial performance, and he's the oldest character on the ship. Kelvin McCoy could be replaced with a single photograph of grumpy cat and a laugh track for better comic delivery. That's just the tip of the dramatic fuckery of the Kelvin timeline. But I'm a Trekkie and bad Trek is still Trek.

One obvious answer to the problem of how can Sulu have a same-sex relationship in one timeline and heterosexual flirtations in another is that Sulu is bi/pan/fluid/omni. But since Sulu's life hasn't been explored in Kelvin beyond a love for fencing and an ability to deliver bad-ass lines, I just don't see him as straight beyond any reasonable doubt.

And I fully agree that Pegg and co are doing this the wrong way. But as I said, it's a franchise reboot blockbuster so there's minimal wiggle room to do it the right way. I'll agree that Pegg's response is ridiculous.

AYRT

We can't really make inferences about character age from actor age. See practically every performance of Romeo and Juliet as an example.
This is why I said if anyone knew their ages, I would like to have that clarified. As all I was going on was what I had seen in the first movie.

But, the answer to any question about "nature vs. nurture" is both.
That is my point? If Sulu were already born and then something happened where he went from being straight to being gay, then they are saying it isn't both, but instead is only nurture. And I don't like that.

differences in character sexuality across universes has already been established in DS9
Across universes is different than alternate time line to me. With handwavium, I can see how an alternate universe version could have something very minorly different in genetics or hormones in the womb or something to supplement differences in the environment. Or, I can also posit that the characters were bi in both universes but due to the different environments, they chose to express that in different ways. A different time line that was established after someone's birth means that it is solely nurture/the environment that is different. And that makes me uncomfortable.

One obvious answer to the problem of how can Sulu have a same-sex relationship in one timeline and heterosexual flirtations in another is that Sulu is bi/pan/fluid/omni.
I would be okay with that as well. As we don't know everything about either Sulu's life other than what was shown. It was shown original Sulu liked girls, but not that he didn't like boys (at least I think? I only saw the movies, and those were when I was a child, so I'm just going by people saying he was shown as straight). So this one could easily be bi and not contradict that. But it has been definitively said that this Sulu is not bi but is gay. At least from what I have seen. Maybe they are making him bi and I missed it.

I agree with your last paragraph. I would have felt so much better about this if they hadn't talked over him. If they had stopped saying they were doing it to honor him and instead used other reasoning.

I think that trying to integrate the "Kelvin timeline" into the rest of the Trek was a mistake, possibly driven by the MMO expansion. Sulu isn't a person, he's a character in an independent derivative work. He is whatever they create. And differences in interpretation and performance are judged by whether they pay off in the end. After all, no one cares that MCU is mostly its own little interpretive oubliette. Or that we've had at least a half dozen cinematic Batmen. (Dumb idea of the night: Batman vs. Batman vs. Batman vs. Batman vs. Batman vs. Batman, with at least two of them cartoon animation.)

I have my doubts that Star Trek: Beyond will given how their reinterpretation of Khan was such a huge mess. And I think anti-funny McCoy is another sign of doing it wrong. But I won't know either way before seeing the movie.

AYRT

I think that trying to integrate the "Kelvin timeline" into the rest of the Trek was a mistake
Whether or not you or I or anyone else thinks it is a mistake, the fact is that they did it and thus they need to work with it as they have laid it out. At least in my opinion. As it has implications inherent in being part of the rest of Trek instead of being its own new thing.

I have my doubts that Star Trek: Beyond will given how their reinterpretation of Khan was such a huge mess. And I think anti-funny McCoy is another sign of doing it wrong. But I won't know either way before seeing the movie.
I have doubts as well. I still haven't been able to bring myself to watch the last movie because of what a mess they made of the whole thing. However, unlike you, I won't be watching the movie to make up my mind. I will find as many spoilers as possible after it is released and make up my mind based off of that. If it sounds like it is reasonable, then I will go see it. (Like I saw Captain America: Civil War despite not seeing Age of Ultron because of what a fuck-up they turned it into.)

Hi, Trekkie nerd steppingin! While I am with Takei on this one, for the record Sulu is actually 4 years younger then Kirk in both realities, not older.

Nah. There are changes in the first movie that pre-date the timeline change. Spock was clearly wrong that it was time travel in the conventional sense. Looks like he flat out jumped a universal railing and ended up in a different dimension that was just running a little out of sync.

Can we please not cite the Mirror Universe on sexuality? That whole thing is just an embarrassment.

No. They are completely different since Kirk was born. And in this timeline Sulu is YOUNGER than Kirk. So his life and gestation could have been completely different.

Well that kinda means that Chekovless Trek can't be a different timeline, but a full on alternate dimension like the mirrorverse was. There are similarities, but it is its own thing.

AYRT
Do you have a source for Sulu being younger than Kirk? Because all I could easily find while on mobile and without being in the fandom were the actors's ages (Memory Alpha is very hard to navigate on phone) and I recall that Sulu was already serving while Kirk was in the Academy in the first movie, which would imply Sulu was older. As I said above, I would still have issues with how this transpired, but I would have less of an issue with the fact of it if Sulu were younger than Kirk and thus not conceived until after the Alternate Reality began.

NAYRT

I think it's possible Kirk was an older-than-average cadet who got into it only because Pike put the idea in his head and not as a post-school career plan. Might have been a contributing factor in his friendship with McCoy if they were both older than most at the academy. This could make Kirk older even if Sulu had graduated earlier.

John Cho is still 8 years older than Chris Pine, though.

(also, I don't really care that much.)

Sulu was born stardate 2337(.unspecified), Kirk 2333.4 in the alt universe.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hikaru_Sulu_(alternate_reality)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3474 ]

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.

Re: Simon Pegg has a fantastic rebuttal.