fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3484 ]

[ SECRET POST #3484 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3484 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Do you mind if I ask what (in brief) your issues with sex-positivity are?

Not sure if it's possible to summarize in brief, but these are the major ones:

- The tendency of sex-positive feminists to romanticize sex work and ignore or shout down actual sex workers and former sex works who point out the serious problems in the porn and prostitution industries, or heaven forbid, say that they think porn/prostitution is wrong. There's no interest in real discourse, just screaming at the opposition for having experiences that don't fit with the favoured narrative.

- The concept of "lipstick feminism" or "weaponized femininity" - everything a woman does is empowering, nothing a woman does can ever be degrading or play into patriarchal expectations! Like, seriously? If you wanna wear lipstick and heels, whatever, do what makes you happy, but if you think doing that is somehow making a feminist statement you're delusional.

- Related to the above: Supporting and encouraging sexual objectification of women because they want to "reclaim" it. Also, "reclaiming" the word slut. It always rubbed me the wrong way, and I was never able to pinpoint why until I discovered older feminist literature about the matter.

- The double standard with regards to "friendzoning" - when straight men talk about the friendzone it's because they're being entitled, but it's ok for fat women and trans people to harass others for not wanting to have sex with them. So turning down a straight man is exerting your bodily autonomy and right to not be treated as an object for sexual gratification, but turning down a fat woman or a trans person is fatphobia/transphobia? How does that make sense?

- The idea of "monosexual privilege", or that gay people are somehow privileged over bisexuals because... I don't even know what the logic here is. Furthermore, I've seen sex-positive feminists and queer theorists talk about how "monosexuality" is so shallow and wrong and everyone should be bisexual/pansexual, or that everyone secretly IS bisexual/pansexual and in denial. It's an attitude I find troubling and homophobic.

Probably a few more that I'm missing, too. IDK, there's a lot about sex-positivity in it's current state that skeeves me out.

My biggest problem with any branch of "social justice" is picking fights with some of the people who should be on the same side. It sounds like you're recognizing some of today's pointless fights, in which case I support you.

I agree with some of this more than others but I rarely see this "double standard when it comes to friendzoning" and it makes me wonder where you're hanging out and seeing it

Google the "Cotton Ceiling" or check out any fat activism blog. You'll see it then.

I mean, it seems to me that you don't just have a few issues with sex-positivity, and it's more that you... pretty much just totally disagree with the underlying theoretical arguments?

Which, you know, fair enough. Don't agree with you but fair enough. But it seems to be a pretty thorough rejection here.

I'd like to think it's not a thorough rejection, because in theory I agree with the basic principle that women should not be afraid or ashamed of their own sexuality, and so many people have tried to convince me that that basic principle is what sex-positivity is fundamentally about.

I think it is possible to be critical of topics relating to sexuality WITHOUT creating an environment where women feel like they shouldn't be sexual at all, but that doesn't seem to be what most sex-positive feminists want. They don't want to be critical of anything, ever.

Your point of view seems to be that women shouldn't be afraid or ashamed of their own sexuality, but that more or less all expressions of sexuality in contemporary society are irrevocably tainted by patriarchy and intrinsically oppressive to women, and therefore those can't provide the means or the structure for empowering/positive sexuality, and they can't provide a structure within which women can be coherently said to have agency.

So, for instance, sex work is basically an irretrievably patriarchal institution, and lipstick and heels are necessarily not empowering because of their roots in sexist culture and expectations, and so on.

Whereas it seems to me that the root of sex-positivity is in trying to reclaim those structures as much as possible, and trying to come to terms with the fact that all of us are born into, conditioned by, and living in a society that remains pretty patriarchal, and trying to build as many spaces and trying to reclaim as much agency for women within that society using its actual structures, and to try to reclaim the idea of agency generally as against social conditioning. Which is definitely much more in line with my own approach, personally.

(I do agree, fwiw, that your points about friendzoning and monosexual privilege have a lot of validity)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3484 ]

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