fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3510 ]

[ SECRET POST #3510 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3510 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Stephen King]

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[John Green]

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[American Gods]

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[Charlie Hunnam in King Arthur: Legend of the Sword]

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[Penn & Teller: Fool Us]

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[Steven Universe]

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[Questionable Content]

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[Ghostbusters 2016]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 53 secrets from Secret Submission Post #502.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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"On reading the book, to me Shadow is supposed to clearly NOT be explicitly black."

Not sure if I agree. Gaiman admits he doesn't yell it out in all caps, but Shadow is of mixed race and Gaiman has suggested that not interpreting Shadow as black means the reader has misinterpreted it.

Shadow is explicitly mixed race but explicitly not visibly black. Like OP said, nobody asks an obvious black guy whether they're black or not.

"nobody asks an obvious black guy whether they're black or not."

Not sure I agree with this, either. You'd think it'd be true, but I'm 100% Chinese, not of mixed heritage. I look very visibly Chinese. But people still ask. Now, I'm sure they have a variety of reasons for asking, but... they still ask.

Are they asking, "Are you 100% Chinese?" or are they asking, "Are you Chinese?" because a lot of non-Asians have difficulty telling some Asians apart (ie Japanese/Chinese/Korean/Taiwanese/Vietnamese etc).

I get it all. People ask if I'm Asian, if I'm Japanese, if I'm Chinese. They generally don't ask about any other Asian cultures and my theory is that those are the only ones they've really heard of.

1. Are you in the US?
2. Do they ask if you're Chinese, or if you're asian?

1. Yes.
2. Both, though not at the same time.

Where the heck do you live? Is it somewhere where everyone's never seen a real live asian person before? How can that even be a question?

That being said, a prison guard who's dealt with black inmates forever, asking if a black guy is black, is even less fathomable than that.

Midwest, and the question generally comes from white people. It's not so much that they've never seen an Asian person, but they may not be personally acquainted with any. They realize I'm not white, but they don't know what I am.

I can buy that, I've known people who grew up in small town America full of white people that had never seen an asian person in the flesh before until they went to college or something.

But again, multiple people from all over the country not knowing whether someone that looks like Ricky Whittle is black or not by looking at him? Is that believable to you?

Well, I have a couple thoughts about this. The first is that what *I* think and find believable is going to be different than what other people think and find believable. That's the point I was trying to make by relating my experiences. I find it pretty incredible that people would look at me and not be sure I'm Asian, but my background is different than the people who ask me that question.

Second, I had to google images of Whittle. He does not look white. To me, he looks black but possibly mixed race. But again, that's me. I don't think my perceptions of race are representative of the average American.

"I find it pretty incredible that people would look at me and not be sure I'm Asian, but my background is different than the people who ask me that question."

That's what I'm saying, and for an author to have put so many people asking whether he's different things in the book, it must mean that he doesn't look obviously like one race or another. Unless the author is gathering up incredible people with incredible backgrounds, all of whom cannot recognize varying races when they see them.

If it were one person asking, I could buy what you say here. Since it's multiple people asking him whether he's different things - Native, gypsy, black, others, it's not reasonable to assume all of them simply can't at all recognize the race they're asking about. That's too much coincidence, from a writing perspective.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-08-14 03:05 (UTC) - Expand

But again, multiple people from all over the country not knowing whether someone that looks like Ricky Whittle is black or not by looking at him? Is that believable to you?

Yes. I'm black, when I first saw him on The 100 I did NOT realise he was part black until I read about the wank between him and the 100's showrunner during the Clexa meltdowns. Like, he looks different in the above picture than he did on the show, but I'm really surprised people would guess "part black" just by looking at him, when I would've guessed dark-skinned white, or part Hispanic.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-08-14 03:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-08-19 19:22 (UTC) - Expand

I've not read the book, so take my comment with a grain of salt, but OP does have a point that someone who is at least a little bit white passing would have someone making comments about whether they were mixed, where as someone who's colouring is less white passing and more 'definitely other' would just be assumed to be 'other'.

On the other hand, if there was a mixed-raced character named SHADOW of all things, I would presume (maybe incorrectly) that he had dark skin.

OP here, and Shadow does have dark skin. It's described as 'cream-and-coffee skin' in the book. The in world reasoning for the name though, is because when he was a small bookish kid with no friends he'd shadow adults around everywhere and is kind of creepily silent and hard to notice, even as an adult.

DA

Cream and coffee is ambiguous enough to be native, latin, tan white, mixed black... which is why Shadow also got asked if he was part Native or "gypsy" at one point IIRC. I just can't imagine anybody asking that of a guy who looks and is black.

OP here and I actually do read Shadow as explicitly mixed race, likely part black. It's not about what he is as much as what he appears. Like the other anon said, when it comes to people who are mixed race, it's only the white-passing ones that get asked questions like 'so do you have ____ blood'. So to me, he's explicitly not OBVIOUSLY black, or people wouldn't be asking him the kinds of questions they are.

Like it's not about 'well he's never stated to NOT be black so it's possible for him to be'. Rather, it's that the way people talk to him in the book regarding the assumptions they're making about his race based on his looks - people irl do NOT talk talk like that to a guy who looks obviously / immediately black in the way Ricky Whittle does. If he actually looked like that, no one would be questioning his race at all.

"If [Shadow] actually looked like [Ricky Whittle], no one would be questioning his race at all."

This is exactly it.

Big guy, intimidating, mixed but not obviously of an expected racial group... so, you're saying Vin Diesel. Vin Diesel should be Shadow.

I mean like, I'd be 100% on board with this.

Plus Vin Diesel is like an actual facts nerd who likes D&D and who can come off as a huge puppy. Half the point of Shadow is he's got surprise interests that people don't expect a big guy to have, so even that side of things would work...

DA

Vin Diesel circa F&F1 or Wentworth Miller circa Prison Break - with tan skin, when he doesn't look "too white" - were always what I pictured Shadow to be like.

^ actual mixed race actors.

They would both be amazing choices.

i just looked up whatever wentworth miller is doing these days, and holy shit he's starting to go gray. i feel old now.

IIRC the "if you don't interpret him as black, you're interpreting it wrong" was actually about the protagonist of Anansi Boys. He's always been a bit more ambiguous about Shadow, because there's always been more room to interpret - he's definitely not white, but reading him as mixed Native or Hispanic or Indian is pretty valid, with what we're given to go on in canon.

Plus, Ricky has what could be considered "white" facial features, so in that light a mixed-race Shadow is not unreasonable.

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