[ SECRET POST #3517 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3517 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 58 secrets from Secret Submission Post #503.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[sarillia]

But those other arguments do happen. People complain about all kinds of things in porn. The arguments are just louder with smutty fanfics because there's more of a chance that the creator will actually see the complaints. I think there's a better chance that the writer of a fic will read the comments on it than the producer of a clip looking through the comments on Redtube or wherever. Of course people complain more when they have a direct line to the person who made the thing they're complaining about.

And as a general note: Usually when a person asks "why aren't people complaining about this too?" the answer is "they are, you just haven't gone looking for them".

[(Anonymous)]

I likely misworded that, apologies. By complaining I meant to the creators, not in general or to each other. I have seen lots of complaints about porn especially in feminist forums and the like.

In my head I was more comparing the number of people who complain about slash vs the number of people who complain about het or femslash. The fact that they have a direct line to the creators is a major factor, it's true, but they have as direct a line in all those. Yet we never see "why isn't there more pegging in het? Let's invoke Real Actual Pegging Women and your fave is problematic" as a loud faction like we see the people insisting on switching or having A/B instead of B/A like in slash fandom.

[sarillia]

I kind of wonder if the guys in fandom are less used to seeing people ignore their experiences and replace them with things that the audience will presumably find sexy. You look at things like costume design for female characters in video games and comics and you find people complaining about them and how it's not realistic and only fanservice, true, but there's also a lot more eye-rolling and resigned sarcasm than you get from the certified gay men complaining about slash. I think a lot of lesbians have resigned themselves to the fact that most lesbian porn is about what straight men will find hot rather than depicting their experiences because that's par for the course for women in media, but there are more gay men who are still fighting.

[(Anonymous)]

That's partially what I mean when I talk about slash fandom being held to a different standard; we don't have - as big - wanks about this kind of thing or what Real Actual People do in other kinds of porn because everyone knows and accepts it's porn for the audience and not for the Real Actual Groups of people appearing in the porn. That's what I assume people mean when they reply with, "it's just porn" - not only that it is porn, but that porn as an idea is always created for an audience which may or may not be you.

When people assume Real Actual People work like porn, that's a whole other issue ofc.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a trans guy so maybe this isn't ~my place~ or whatever but for what's worth, I have the exact same complaint as secret!OP does. And a lot of my friends do too, and they're all cis women. I've met less dudes who talk about it than I do other cis girls. I think the only reason OP invoked "Actual Real Gay Man" was a bit tongue in cheek. The last thread they're talking about involved a secret where lots of cis women were quick to bring up how Actual Real Gay Men Totally Have This Rigid Top/Bottom Role All The Time See, so I think he was being a bit silly on purpose.

But yeah, 98% of the complaining I see comes from other cis girls. And for what's it worth, I see plenty of complaining about a lack of pegging, a lack of X issue, a lack of Y issue, a lack of XY and Z issue, etc. If you care about something in fiction, you're likely to search out conversations about That Thing, and to see it.

[sarillia]

I know there are a lot of women who complain about this too, but I don't know anything about the number of them compared to the guys because I don't like to assume anyone's gender. Personally I remember hearing more complaints from gay men but maybe that's just because they're the ones announcing their gender where the women know they're being assumed female because it's fandom. Maybe you have a better idea of the genders involved than I do. I don't know. I just had a thought and typed it out to get it straight in my head. I'm not that attached to it. It could be way off.

[(Anonymous)]

In my experience it's definitely the guys who announce their genders more. It's kind of become "expected", for a twofold reason I think. One is because lots of times in fandom "Actual Real Gay Men" are invoked as a reason for or against switching, which is why I think OP was being clearly tongue-in-cheek (if the All Capital Name didn't clue me in, the silly commentary definitely did haha), and two because I think in certain circles it's become kind of cliche that "oh you're just a cis girl complaining about this, what experience do YOU have with it?"

So it's kind of a sexism against women in fandom thing, and a weird Gay Tokenism thing. But yeah, most of the people I know who complain about it are women who I know personally, or when I see it in the wild it's usually a cis woman's profile.

In the end I don't think it really matters to be honest, I don't think that gay men presume that slash is All For Them, but with the weird quasi "I'm an ALLY see!?" that's cropped up in some circles, and how to different people slash means different things ("I'm doing it for represnetation" "I'm doing it because I find it hot" "I'm doing it because I'm queer too, and I like my fan words queer!", add a million more reasons onto this), it's just become A Thing a bit. Obviously I might be a little biased because I definitely agree with OP's complaints, but I also think his points would have been just as valid if they had come out with "As an Actual Lesbian Woman", because ultimately I just think that was a bit of tongue in cheek plus they wanted to note that in their experience (and in mine in the gay community being honest), vers is much, much more common and accepted than it is in slash fandom, which has...let's be real, kind of a complex about it at times (looking at you Supernatural!).