fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #477 ]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

When did I ever say I would call every character I dislike a Sue XD Seriously, you shouldn't put words into other people's mouths. I wouldn't call, say, Hinata and Shikamaru from Naruto sues/stus just because I dislike them. I only call character's sues if I believe they are deserving of the label, which I think Nia is. You may not agree with the label, but you opinion certainly isn't the only one. Like I said before, we're not going to change the other's mind anytime soon and I'm fine with that. I'm entitled to believe she is a Sue as much as you're entitled to believe she is not one.

The way you're FORCING Nia into being a Sue makes me think you would call any character not of your taste a Sue.

A little testy, aren't we? XD I'm not "forcing" anyone into anything. I'm saying she's a Sue and giving you reasons why. There's no need to get your panties in a bunch because we have different opinions. Believe it or not, not everyone agrees about everything on the Internet! A real shocker, I know.

The quality of something is subjective, I agree. You can like or dislike something. Mary Sue is nevertheless an adjective similar to "yellow" or "orange", no matter how much you want something yellow to be orange it will be objectively yellow since that's something inherent to the definition of the word itself.

Ther term "Mary Sue" is not similar to a color, because it does not have one constant definition. Unless someone's colorblind or something of that nature, a color will always be the same for every person. The definition of Mary Sue, on the other hand, easily changes.

If the term Mary Sue easily changes then it has no meaning whatsoever, why do you keep using it if it means nothing? A word that has no defined meaning is not a useful word. It's like if I invented a terminology right now and in three years the terminology meant a completely different thing... was there any point in creating said terminology in the first place?

Okay, now this is just becoming ridiculous. I'm clearly referring to how the term Mary Sue is used in present day on the Internet. When I said it easily changes, I mean it obviously has no one, true definition like the colors in your analogy and it's definition can change over time. The term Mary Sue primarily gained popularity on the Internet, and the Internet is hardly a consistent place. Various internet memes we have now will likely fade into obscurity, much like the term will 50 years from now. But we are here in the present, and must focus on soley the present definition.

And as for your hypothetical situation, the word will most likely change because people and their opinions will change. The term Mary Sue is very subjective, hence our differing opinions.

a) What I meant is that if the word means different thing for different people, then it isn't a useful word. The word "good" means the same for everyone, doesn't it? What does "Mary Sue" means? If we can't agree then it isn't a useful term.

b) The present definition of Mary Sue does not fit Nia. She is not a perfect character. Being physically beautiful is a given in anime. Her skills and traits are believable. And, most importantly, nothing about her breaks suspension of disbelief. Where do the Mary Sue idea fits in?

a) The word "good" definitely does not mean the same thing for everyone. Different values, religions, and cultures stress a different meaning on the word. What could be good for a Islamic male in a middle eastern country is probably not the same as what is good for a white, Christian female in a Western country, for example. And I've been saying this many times before, but I'll say it again: That's the whole core of our argument. We DON'T have the same definition.

b) Being beautiful is one thing, but just look at her: Does she seriously not fit the ideal image of a Sue with her special eyes and cotton candy hair? And I certainly don't find her skills and traits believable, but that's another reason why our opinions differ. And the suspension of disbelief card I've already discussed. I've already told you why I think she's a Sue, and I don't believe more elaboration is needed.

a) That's not what I meant. Good is always positive, no matter the culture the word "good" will always mean the same for everyone. If an Islamic guy tells you he thinks something is good, you can tell he likes it. You can't say the same thing of something like Mary Sue, specially since it isn't such a simple adjective.

b) Cotton hair and special eyes are a design quirk, they don't affect how she is written. How are her "skills" unbelievable? She has no skills whatsoever other than being charismatic and good with logic! You may think she is a Sue, but you're not making a valid case. The only reason she even looks flawless is thanks to Simon, they rely on each other and would be hopeless if not together.

Okay, I think we both understand that we're not going to change the other's opinion anytime soon. Frankly, it's late and I really have other things to be doing, no matter how complelling this debate is. I think she's a Sue, I gave you reasons, you disgreed with those reasons, and we've just been going around in circles without accomplishing much of anything. I understand you don't think she's a Sue, and that's fine; it's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. But what you fail to grasp is that I'm entitled to believe she is a Sue just as much as you're entitled to believe she is not. My definition of a Sue is different than yours, and because she fits my criteria does not mean she fits yours.

Although you might not think so, I thought it was an amusing and entertaining debate <3 Just a piece of friendly advice, though: don't jump to conclusions about the other debater. I recall you saying something along the lines of me automatically hating "larger than life" female characters and labeling all characters I disliked Sues. When you do things like that, it makes your side look weak and does not give a good impression, especially since you don't even know me.

Regardless, you did manage to bring up some good points. Although I still believe Nia is a Sue, I will try to use the term less loosely in the future.

You're entitled to believe yellow is orange or that 2+2 is 6, that does not make said belief correct. I don't see how Nia is a Sue and think most of your "examples" or "quotations" are for sure not strong enough to hold an argument as exemplified by how you basically ignored my previous reply that addressed them, but you're still free to keep holding to the idea that she is a Sue. Just expect people to rightfully correct, or if they're less kind perhaps even antagonize, you every time you express that "belief". :)

The reason I did not adress your points was because I thought it was clear that I was trying to close the debate, and adressing those points would just fuel the fire. I would continue, but discussing something on a secret post that's already 2 days old is ridiculous, especially when we know we're not going to change the other's mind. And as I have stated MANY TIMES BEFORE, the Mary Sue definition is not a constant term like colors or numbers, making that comparison weak.

But seriously, "The only reason she even looks flawless is thanks to Simon"? How does her appearance have anything to do with Somon? XD

Somon should by Simon in the last sentence, my bad.

I was not talking about "appearance" in there, but rather about how the only reason she is as strong-hearted and "flawless" is Simon's existence. You said it yourself, the only reason her naivety or blind trustiness never showcased negative consequences is Simon.

[ SECRET POST #477 ]

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