fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3630 ]

[ SECRET POST #3630 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3630 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"White nationalists" is accurate enough, but "neo-Nazis" is probably less so

Yeah, there is nothing "neo" about them. They are Nazis. Lets not sugar coat it. We've turned "nazi" into such a taboo worst-of-the-worst title that we're actualy afraid to apply it properly because it seems unreasonable and going too far and the nazis of the alt-right have taken advantage of that. Stop trying to fit in with their definition of being reasonable, they use that as a weapon, just call the nazis nazis.

Most of the people described are not Nazis either. They are very bad people; calling them fascists is not inaccurate, nor is it wrong to call them racists and white supremacists; but I don't think it's accurate to call them Nazis, and I wish we wouldn't do it, because it is untruthful and confusing.

They are white people who believe in the superiority of white blood over minorities (both racial and religious). They also believe in the idea of requiring certain groups (Muslims as opposed to Jewish people) to be registered OR shipped out of the US.

They are just a new kind of Nazi, or Neo-Nazi.

I don't think it's really useful or true to describe anyone who supports those policies as being a Nazi. It's not like we lack terminology that describes these people in a way that is accurate, and makes clear their basic racism and shittiness. It seems unnecessary, it's easy to refute, and it further confuses political discourse and political understanding in America, which is really harmful.

But...they're Nazis. They're literally fucking Nazis. They do the salute. They say shit like "Heil Trump". They went on the fucking news questioning whether Jews are human. They're Nazis! Get your head out of the sand and stop trying to soften the blow here, we are dealing with actual, real, 100% no-fucking-around literal fucking Nazis.

Listen, I hate to seem like I'm defending these people, because they're evil assholes and extremely racist, but I think white nationalism and fascism are more useful lenses to understand them than Nazis. I think that the uses of Nazi imagery that you're referring to were not expressive of their deepest beliefs - which, look, I don't think it's very positive about them to say that they're open to using Nazi imagery just to piss people off. It's really bad for them to be willing to do that. But I think that Nazi-ism is a specific subset of fascism, and it's just not a great match for what is happening. I still think that the problem is that describing them as Nazis is just ultimately not as useful as fascist or white nationalist. And I think that maintaining a clear sight of what is going on is really important here.

NA
Ditto that. I just think it's really easy for other people to dismiss the Nazi argument. Nazis are so tied to Hitler and the 1930s-40s that I think in a lot of people's minds, Nazis are just history, like Confederate soldiers, Redcoats and pilgrims. So, when people say "We should call White Nationalists Nazis!" they think you're being a hyperbolic reactionary baby.

Whether present day people following Nazi doctrine makes them Nazis or not is irrelevant. All that matters is how very counterproductive it is to make that argument. And I don't really think this is an area where we can afford to prioritize pedantry over productivity.

I don't think pedantry and productivity can necessarily be separated in this case. Because, first of all, clarity and understanding is an important political value. Political confusion and the inability to speak clearly about and to understand politics is harmful in and of itself. Second of all, I don't think calling white nationalists Nazis is a particularly productive thing to do. I don't think it's a way of talking that people take seriously, and I think it's reasonably easy to disprove. So I'm just not sure what the upside is.

Um...I was AGREEING eith you that call I people Nazis was not productive...

White nationalists isn't entirely accurate either, considering that, for some reason, there actually are plenty of POC who voted Trump.

When we talk about the alt-right, or white supremacists, or what have you, we're not talking about Trump supporters in their entirety. We're talking about specific groups with specific ideologies and arguments, who are in general also very vociferous and enthusiastic supporters of Trump. People supported Trump for many reasons - I think mostly for reasons that were bad, or stupid, or both, but nevertheless, for many reasons beyond a belief in white supremacy. So we shouldn't ascribe white supremacy to all his supporters; at the same time, we shouldn't hesitate from talking honestly and clearly about the important section of his base that are explicit or implicit white supremacists.

NAYRT

People supported Trump for many reasons - I think mostly for reasons that were bad, or stupid, or both, but nevertheless, for many reasons beyond a belief in white supremacy. So we shouldn't ascribe white supremacy to all his supporters; at the same time, we shouldn't hesitate from talking honestly and clearly about the important section of his base that are explicit or implicit white supremacists.

VERY well said.

Then how about just economic patriots, or simply nationalists?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3630 ]

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