fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3755 ]

[ SECRET POST #3755 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3755 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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No, actually, which is kind of interesting. Not to go in a fandom history lecture or anything, but the first few types of characters it was used for were not transgender at all. They were used for characters like Bridget from Guilty Gear who was raised as a girl and looked feminine but but definitely identified as male. Hence "it's a trap," meaning he looked like a girl but turned out to be a boy, both physically and mentally. Originally, the characters considered "traps" didn't have breasts or anything like that, didn't want them, and were not trans in the least. "Chicks with dicks," to use your phrase, do NOT fall under the original trap trope.

This is the original: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeLooksLikeALady

It's a trap because they're actually male-identified biologically male men (who usually aren't into other men, either).

People took that term then started applying it to trans women for some reason when it's not the same thing at all. Trans women considered it generally offensive because it sounded like people were saying they were "trapping" hetero men into relationships or sex with them by "tricking" them about their gender (which clearly wasn't the case there) and/or saying they were "feminine looking men" when you know, they identified as feminine looking women.

So it's not even "the cartoon version of a real kind of person." It's more like a cartoon thing that people for some reason started applying sometimes to a totally different group of actual people (?). I don't know why that happened, but that's the history of it.

i don't know, boss, this seems awfully contrived, i understand that "trap" is offensive for some reason so i'll avoid using it in the future, but it doesn't change the fact that i still find girls with penises hot

I'm just telling you the history of the word. Trap doesn't mean what you think it means. (Unless by "girls with penises" you mean "boys with penises" and somehow I doubt it.)

You might have better luck with dickgirl (or futanari), if you're going to google search things! (But again, you shouldn't use those words to refer to real people unless your intent is to offend.)

Edited 2017-04-15 21:26 (UTC)

so can i post a thread for people to talk about our love for girls with penises?

If people want to start a thread of like fictional futanari porn art recs or their favorite trans pornstars or fictional traps then yes, depending (warn/collapse if it's going to contain porn). But it's generally offensive to lump fictional traps and real trans women in the same category, so separate threads would be better.

If you're gonna post trans pornstars and be like "ITS A TRAP XDXD dicks fap fap" though, then no.

Edited 2017-04-15 21:35 (UTC)

But it's generally offensive to lump fictional traps and real trans women in the same category

i don't understand why the difference matters, it doesn't matter if they're real or cartoons, they're still ladies with penises, that is the whole point

Traps are men.

but we're not talking about the word 'trap' anymore, i was using it initially to refer to ladies with penises, i see now that i was using the term wrong apparently but it doesn't change the fact that i was referring to ladies with penises

my question now is why does it matter if they're real or cartoon

You'll have to rephrase the question and give me more context. Why does it matter if they're real or cartoon in respect to what?

i was responding to this:

But it's generally offensive to lump fictional traps and real trans women in the same category

i don't understand why the difference matters, either way it's ladies with penises, that is what i like

Because traps are men.

Let me know when you figure it out.

okay but i think we were both misunderstanding each other, let me try again

why does it matter if the ladies with penises are real or cartoons? why am i not allowed to lump one with the other??

Huh? I was telling you not to lump fictional men (traps) with real trans women. The key there is not real vs. fictional, it's male vs. female.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm the best person to explain why lump real trans women with fictional characters like dickgirls can be a problem.

but i'm not TALKING about fictional men, i'm not TALKING about your definition of 'trap,' i'm not even USING the word 'trap' anymore per your explaining it, why are you still talking about stuff we moved on from several posts ago???

i'm TALKING about CARTOON ladies with penises vs REAL ladies with penises and i want to know why it's okay to masturbate to one but not the other, it's the "lady + penis" part that i care about and i'm not picky about whether it's drawn or real

Can you link me the post where I said you could not masturbate? You've lost me.

it's been implied throughout this thread with you and that other person

but i have another question

earlier you told me to look up a recent wank from the past week or so but i'm not sure what you mean? i've been looking but unless i missed something i don't see it

Huh, I don't think I've implied that anywhere. The only time I brought up fictional girls with penises is in the post where I say you shouldn't use the same terminology like "dickgirl" to real women as opposed to fictional women. Not anything about your masturbation habits.

Maybe it's the week before?

https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/1594592.html?thread=955199712#cmt955199712 was this it? i think there's a couple threads

Yeah, that was it.

Anyway, porn/kink threads are fine, it was just saying "traps" and meaning actual trans women that was the issue, like I said in the beginning. Liking actual trans women is totally fine, and I don't know why you'd think I said it wasn't - it was just that you put them in the same thread as fictional men as though they're the same thing/called theme something generally considered offensive when applied to real people.

Hopefully that's clear enough?

okay but

i didn't intend to do that?? i wasn't talking about fictional girly boys, i've explained that already. when i said "traps" i understood it to mean ladies with penises

obviously that was wrong and i won't use it again but in no way at any point was i ever talking about girly boys, my intent wasn't to lump them in with ladies with penises because even i know they're not the same thing

Re: Why was my post deleted?

case - 2017-04-15 23:26 (UTC) - Expand

As someone who actually likes traps in the anime sense probably far more than they should admit, nope, Case has it exactly right. And frankly, the fact that they aren't just "chicks with dicks" but rather men that look like women is the main appeal.

This is genuinely interesting and informative, case. It's not a trope/trope area I'm personally into and I can't see myself having ever used the word trap in the right context or the wrong one, but all the same, I appreciate the lesson (not kidding).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_(Guilty_Gear)

The term is actually referenced on Bridget's wikipedia page!

Since Bridget is a boy who was raised as a girl, his sexuality has been questioned. Although his sexual orientation is undisclosed,[28] several websites have included the character in LGBT-related articles.[7][29][30][31] On other hand, Destructoid featured an article "to argue the heterosexuality of Bridget."[4] Despite the controversy, GayGamer.net, JeuxvideoPC and Destructoid agree that Bridget is appreciated by fans; on the Internet, pictures of the character appear with captions such as "Bridget made me gay" and "Everyone is gay for Bridget".[4][7][29] This was cited by GamesRadar's staff, which listed him among "characters we'd go gay for".[32] When John McCain sponsored a bill which would require ISPs and possibly websites to alert the government about illegal images of minors—including cartoons—Wired published an article entitled "McCain Not Gay For Bridget".[33]

Gamasutra's Zoran Iovanovici ascribed Bridget's popularity to the fact that he is "ultra feminized", adding that "[i]t's no surprise that Bridget has become a fan favorite over the years."[34] Stephen Kelley wrote on VG Chartz that Bridget "appears to be a 'moe' style cute anime character", but "[d]ressed in the provocative nun costume Bridget is suddenly a creepy sex object."[35] Pride St. Clair posted on the Piki Geek blog that Bridget "seemed to be playing towards several prevalent anime fetishes, including the innocent girl and the religious figure who is at once both desirable and chaste", saying that despite seeming "designed as a trap ... Bridget is a sort of touchstone, a basis for a productive discussion about the role gender and fetishism plays in fighting games and modern Japanese culture."[5]

To be fair - political climate changed and barely anyone uses 'trap' in original context bar people who describe themselves as such (*insert obligatory friend comment*). It was also not wide-spread as seen 'femme' or 'crossdresser' more and both are vast umbrellas. As for cartoon women with penises - futanari is best bet but it can be both trans positive with trans women artists and totally opposite with all negative tropes. Second is much more mainstream and women tend to back away slowly.

I do doubt that anon above was not a troll but again - social values changed and after a brief period of grace in some areas - we are back to sorting women into boxes they do not create themselves (as in: everyone likes different types of people on gender spectrum and also everyone should have a choice on how they want to be perceived so one woman might wish to add penis to descriptor but another would not).

The divisions of any person being some weird, alien niche where everyone decides if public can be attracted to them or not is horrific. Oh, usually it is a specific person aka. women - never seen such long winded discussions about blokes (here I assume binary blokes) and with that I mean robbing agency - sure people debate if they fancy some dude or not but not much about words a guy uses.

I'm not entirely sure that I grasp what you're saying, but I think a lot of this is effectively inevitable baggage involved in using language at all, and i really mean that. like, if you are going to use words to describe peoples' gender or sexual identities, and if you want those words to have any meaning on a wide scale, there is inevitably going to be a point where the words break down - there's no point where you can get specific enough to fully account for something that's so intrinsically personal and varied.

Like, it's possible to imagine everyone creating a word for their specific gender-sexual identity, but doing so seems like it would be pretty meaningless almost immediately. As long as we use words defined by consensus to define ourselves, we're going to give away some of our ability to control that definition. The best approach to me is to understand it and work within those constraints.

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