fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #501 ]

⌈ Secret Post #501 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 266 secrets from Secret Submission Post #072.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - seizure inducing ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

See, there is this believe in shonen/seinen/fanboy's (or mainstream) circles than nothing can be 'better' than Ozamu Tezuka, and Berserk is the best thing ever because 'it's SO GAR and MANLY, and DEEP.'

*sighs* It's not that it doesn't permeates all of our culture. Compare those two comics with any shoujo and tell why you think it will be better. And don't tell me it's for the 'panels' and the 'clarity.' Why didn't they put Emma there? The other manga? I don't know it, but I can tell it's not a shoujo, or even a josei.

Peet peeve of mine maybe. Because it's not the first time I have heard this exact same claim about what is good or bad.

Compare those two comics with any shoujo and tell why you think it will be better

*they will be better.

Nowhere does the secret say "shounen/seinen is SUPERIOR to shoujo here's why." The secret isn't about shoujo, seinen, or whatever, it's about what does and doesn't make good art.

I think you're jumping to one too many conclusions.

... It doesn't have to say it, it just has to imply it. Again, this isn't a unpopular opinion out there.

It's pretty much what I read into it, because I know our pretty western culture.

But, hey, if you aren't comfortable with that, fine by me. Yeah, it doesn't explicitly said it.

See, it's not you can like Berserk better than CLAMP. You can, and you can think it's better. But when you jump and say 'THIS IS THE TRUE SUPERIOR GOOD ART' and 'MOST OF THE FANDOM WOULDN'T KNOW IT.' Well...

... Wait, the other one was Hayao Miyazaki's? My case is rested.

How is Miyazaki sexist? That guy has girls saving the guy's butts more times than anyone would care to count. He himself is a fierce critic of the way women are portrayed in many recent shows (especially moe shows).

No, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to say. Tezuka and Miyazaki are the ones who are always by men used to illustrate that 'true art' is the one directed towards a male audience. I'm really not much familiar with Miyazaki's work except for a few movies.

Damn, me again.

... And those are two piss poor examples. Miyazaki's movies are family movies, they have no specific target audience, except perhaps, children/teenagers.

As for Tezuka, the man is the father of manga, he did both shounen and shoujo stuff (in fact, he even did a BL manga once, if I remember right).

So, yeah, if people use those two as examples of stuff directed at males being superior than stuff directed at females, than they don't know what they're really talking about.

Hmm, see, I'm kinda skeptic there. Mainstream is generally viewed as a male-directed because, well, 'male' is the default.

But anyway, I'm not an expert on those two authors so I wouldn't know how female-targeted they are considered; but when they always get compared to shoujo or something stereotypically female and artsy to show 'true quality'? We can talk about some problematic standards there.

But to be fair, maybe I was exaggerating about Miyazaki. The ones I always see named on those discussions are Tezuka and movies like Akira and the likes (Actually, this secret reminded me a lot of this post (http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/655511.html), its kind of funny; but by any means, that's not the only time I've heard the same thing).

Well, I have to study now. ^^; ~~Tezuka did BL?~~

Hey and look at this comment by

musouka_manga at that post:

It drives me up the goddamn wall when I see people (usually guys) talk about "good manga" and the "good manga" is always hyper-violent seinen stuff that was published more than a decade ago, Tezuka, or hyper-violent overpriced seinen stuff put out by Darkhorse.

Basically, "good manga" is the manga closest to American comic books--except maybe even more sexualized and more violent. All that shoujo manga girly shit? Clearly it can't be "good" because it's outside of their comic book norm. after all, girls read that stuff! And we all know girls have cooties.

And look at Berserk up there. Huh.

Sigh, makes me sad to see my gender being so assholeish... Especially as someone that grew up with Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura and stuff from the World Materpiece Theater (bunch of shoujo anime based on classical novels <3)...

Oh well @___@ I'll just sit in my corner with my shoujo (Ok, so I also have some shounen and seinen, but whatevs)...

Awww, yeah, I love shoujo too! But I'm a girl, so... XP

Yeah, at least I remember it being made by a Tezuka, and it had his artstyle. And it wasn't the fluffy boy meets boy stuff we see nowadays. It was about the relationship between a Catholic Priest and a cross dressing serial killer/rapist, whose relationship started with pedo rape. Apparently, he was going through a dark period in his life when he made it. :P

Wow. Interesting. O_O I will definitely look for it, thanks!

That Tezuka example used in the secret? It's from that manga.

Really? Huh, thank you! I think I will read it some day.

I also have this pet peeve, but I didn't notice anything sexist about that secret. The OP even said s/he wasn't trying to pick on CLAMP, only used their art to illustrate that simple and clear > pretty but utterly confusing, and I actually tend to agree with that. The OP's examples of "good art" kind of confuse me, though, because Berserk and Miyazaki? Subjective notions of "good" and "bad" aside, they're way too busy and confusing as hell.

[Disclaimer: I don't even like Tezuka *is uncultured barbarian* and Berserk is one of the few manga that I loathe.]

Yeah, it's not that it's openly sexist. It just reinforces the concept that true good art is always something done by respectable male-mangaka for a target male-audience; and centers itself in fights/action oriented plots. Hence the OP claim that 'good art' is about the clarity of the fights/etc., ignoring that shoujo/josei panels are made in other way for specific purposes.

OH! I loathe Berserk too. And that's is a relly unpopular opinion. XD

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