fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3821 ]

I agree drabbles and shorter fics obviously didn't originate with newer fandom trends, but the notion of how much time and polishing goes into a fic has absolutely diminished in line with how everything else on the internet is trending towards shorter form and short attention spans. I'm not here to tell anyone they have no right to put fic on the internet without getting it beta'd or at least proofreading it themselves, but not doing so simply is more the norm, and that's depressing.

Less feedback is also the norm. I wonder if those are related?

Yes to ALL of this. Short fic, drabbles, mini 5 Things fics, they've all been fixtures in fandom long before Tumblr was a thing. And there have always been people that churned out copious choppy, poorly edited stories as inspiration struck. But now that's the norm, rather than the exception. And you're the one with the problem if you're not of a mind to gush all over someone's latest microfic mindfart.

...Okay, so that last bit is somewhat harsh, but I checked AO3 this evening to see if anyone had posted something new for my current Beloved Shiny Object, and I found a single 500-word offering, and the summary included a line to the effect of, "this is haphazard and unfinished because I wrote it on my lunch break," and - I just - what??

If it makes you feel better (it won't), I was sorting AO3's fics by length in my current Beloved Shiny Object, and there were like, four things longer than 20K words and maybe twelve or fifteen between 4K and 20K. Fully half of the fics in the second category were "o hai Tumblr prompt fills" with like, 25 chapters for 15,000 words, and two of the longfics were "here is my crossover starring an Original Character!!!" WHAT IS THIS, FF.NET??

tl;dr - no, it is NOT somewhat harsh, and I have the same impression you do.

Well, you're right that I don't exactly feel better, but at least I know that someone shares my pain and frustration? Also, I hear you on getting your hopes up, only to realize that the search results you were hoping would contain some stories-with-plot are heavily populated with tumblr prompt collections and OC epics or Reader/favourite character epics... (and there's a whole other rant right there!)

Right???? You are not alone, we share the same misery. I don't know whether I'm more annoyed by massive collections of tumblr prompt collections masquerading in search results as potential-fics-with-a-plot or pages and pages of miniature of-course-300-words-is-an-entire-fic postings. There are days I hate both with equal fervor. (There are also days I have very few feelings about it one way or the other, because I am a human being with complex emotions, to be fair.)

OMG Character/Reader epics - like, what the shit? I can't even. I want to rant about it, and I can't even find the words for how absolutely bizarre it is that someone wants to market that as fiction, and then my brain starts looking at the transformative effect video games have had on entertainment. Then I think that the participatory nature of video games plus the unwillingness to put in effort plus the wish fulfillment aspect of XReader is how one gets an audience for such absurd nonsense.

...this is not to say I have anything against video games. Just to be clear on that topic.

...Clearly, we really do share each other's misery! While I'd prefer that people gather their tumblr prompt fic into a collection I can easily scroll past, I still get irrationally annoyed when I see multiple collections in a page of search results. Especially when it's one with 100+ chapters and a word count of 20,000 or something. And I hate, hate, HATE having to click through pages and pages and PAGES of someone uploading their entire library of "Drabble challenge" fic responses from their LJ days to AO3 all in the same night. Especially when they're barely tagged and have no summaries!

Oh my GOD, the Reader/Character thing just...breaks my brain. I DO NOT GET IT. I mean, I like to think I have a reasonably good imagination, but I just do not understand the appeal of that sort of thing. Or how I could even project myself onto "Reader", "Y/N", or whatever cutesy term appears in the fic. Reader is so obviously NOT the actual reader so...how?? And WHY?? Even taking into account the increased prevalence of video games and how they encourage a player to participate in the experience of the game (though that's a pretty nifty theory, and does offer an interesting reason - thank you for sharing!), I still don't understand why someone would ever want to write something like that, much less why anyone would want to read it. YKINMKATOK and all, I won't scream abuse at the people who do indulge in it, but MAN, I just do NOT get it.

Video games are great! Though even there, I tend to stick to RPGs. I do better with immersive stories. (Countless hours of level grinding notwithstanding.)

It's aaaaaaaaaaaaall annoying, the drabble collections and challenges. I feel better now, though, so thank you for the sympathy.

And I mean, no, I pass no judgment on the authors or the readers of XReader fic, you do what makes you happy, that's totally fine. But I can stand here and go WTF without being a judgmental prick (which I think we're doing quite well). But yeah. No. Just. No. If I want to read about a fandom, then I want to read about the characters in a fandom. If I want to imagine myself banging a character, I don't want someone else writing a fic for that... I. Yeah. Unfathomable. I'm glad you like the theory, though.

I also think video games are great, but I don't play them at all. Once in a blue moon I get bored and play Angry Birds, but I don't think that counts. But yeah, I mean, they have the potential for a different type of storytelling than has been the norm since film and television were introduced. I can't really speak as to the participatory nature of stage performances, for example, before the advent of film, but. I appreciate how it's a differently immersive experience, and people should enjoy that.

Reader is so obviously NOT the actual reader so...how??

Yeah, that's the part that gets to me the most about that type of fic. Either the "reader" character has to be left so vague to where anyone reading can see themselves in that role, which makes it harder for me to really engage with the story and the interaction between the "reader" and the character in question (I don't exactly need to read a fic to fantasize about myself getting all romantic with a character I'm crushing on, after all), or they've got just enough detail for the "reader" to where it's harder for some readers to enjoy it, since they don't quite fit the description of the "reader" character.

And if the writer's already creating some descriptive qualities for this reader character, why not just go all the way and make a proper OC? I know that OC fic gets dumped on a lot, too, which can be equally as sucky and frustrating for a writer, but still, at least you're practicing how to create your own characters, which is a worthwhile skill.

Like you and others have said here, if people want to write and read that kind of fic, fine, more power to 'em. I can just scroll past it. But I do understand and sympathize with the issues people have with that kind of fic, yeah.

OP

I've seen an uptick in fics like that and the Y/N thing always makes me think it's asking yes or no like an rp fic or something. :|

I share your guys misery too.
I miss those big epic fics that also had like plot and angst and fluff and whatnot. And speculation and character development.

But you know what part of the problem is? People expect chapters to be cranked out at the speed of light. I see fics that update every WEEK. Like wtf, if I write a chapter a month I consider that fast!

Edited 2017-06-21 04:20 (UTC)

This comes back to writing is HARD; the big epic fics with plot and angst and fluff are my favorites, too, but they're also the ones that take the most dedication and effort. So yeah, I bookmark things and check and generally try to have patience for the authors creating things that I like. Even if *I* feel like they're writing slowly, everyone does things differently.

My solution to the expectation of speed as a writer (particularly because I like to be able to edit previous chapters, especially if I'm not sure where I'm going with a fic) is to not post WIPs until I've actually finished writing them. Then I can go with an update schedule. Of course, it still takes forever to write them, and motivation can sometimes be hard to generate. >.> I dunno. If someone is paying attention to something I'm in the process of writing, that conversely makes it harder for me to actually finish it, particularly if the attention is positive. I feel like I'm going to let people down. (I may be slightly atypical?)

I'm maybe 35K words into one at the moment that was supposed to be around 50K, but I hate like, half of it and it needs extensive editing and I'm not sure what to do with the second half, which is not bloody cooperating and argh. But I've done the writing bit over the past 18 days, which is the only way I can keep up the momentum to actually finish anything.

I'm basically doing that with my current WIP (writing the whole thing before posting), but in a way... the only reason I can do it is because I'm not really in the fandom. Mine is going to probably be 100k, but I don't write that quickly... so in most cases, if the only way I can "really" feel like I'm in the fandom is to be posting fic, this means that I'd be spending a year+ just writing and not really interacting with anybody.
My solution was that I basically found a beta and she's the one I "write for", and a sort of mini-audience to give me responses and keep me motivated. While instant gratification may be iffy, writing in a vacuum is also pretty difficult, and most published authors have their own readers to help with the process.

I do think though that people used to be more tolerant of slow writing in general, though (in part because you didn't have the same speed/reblogging issues). Most authors I knew would update with a long chapter every month or so, and people were happy with that.

What fandom is the fic you're struggling with? If it's something I'm familiar with, I do love plot wrangling, and I'd be happy to be a sounding board.

I like your solution - balance between writing in a vacuum and chasing instant gratification. (How to balance things, the theme for my life right now.) Good luck on your WIP. <3 <3

My current, uh, disaster is for a Kamen Rider series, which I don't know if you're familiar with? It did weird things from the start, and I feel kind of like the bulk of it's been doing rather pointless meandering. (I mean, I'm having fun with it, but at this point I don't think anyone but me would want to read it. Which is not a BAD thing, really.)

The truth is, I'm not averse to writing and posting immediately (and my chapters are all 6k+, so it's not short, either), but I've reached a point of having bad track record with WIPs and I'm a little disappointed in myself, so I'm hoping that by writing it all and then posting, it'll encourage me to work harder on getting it done. And if I stumble in the middle, well, at least I'm not disappointing people...

Sadly, I am not familiar with Kamen Rider (though some of my friends are really into it, and I've considered giving it a try! Got a suggestion where to start?). Do you think it's the kind of situation that I might be able to give some input based on your explanations? I've had friends who aren't in my fandoms help me with stuff, sometimes. Obviously it's not the same, but plot is plot.

(honestly though, so many fics are such messes of melodrama, don't assume that nobody would want to read it! XD)

^that was me. I didn't notice I'd been signed out.

Sometimes that will happen. Technology, it makes our lives better. I totally hear you with "At least if I don't finish this one, no one will be disappointed...."

Re: fic - mostly I'm... It's mostly that I'm not sure of my approach to storytelling the first half (more boring than melodramatic, I think, involving POV characters who then vanish for Reasons), and then the second half POV character is difficult to write in general. I dunno. I'm going to keep at it and then go back once I've got the first draft and see what needs overhauling and what I like.

Where to start with Kamen Rider. Ah. :D I have a lot of opinions. So many opinions. If you want to start with something current, the series airing this year - Ex-Aid - is definitely something. Friend of mine describes it as "a pretty ballsy critique of consumer-driven capitalism & corporate IP rights abuse for a show selling toys to 8-yr-olds."

Most of my opinions are confined to the last 18 years or so of KR broadcast history, though; I haven't seen any of the Showa Era series, and if you know what that means skip everything in the parentheses (Kamen Rider first aired in '71 or 72 and then irregularly until the early 90s - these are the Showa Era series, all of which had involvement from the show's original creator; this was followed by a lull for several years, and then the franchise was revived in 2000 with Kamen Rider Kuuga and since then it has done a new series every year).

Ryuki (2002) and Blade (2004) were well-received, Den-O (2007) was well-received, if anyone tells you to watch Decade (2009) it's a mess and full of plot holes and don't listen to them, W (2010, pronounced "Double" because Japan) is pretty solid if you want to get a handle on what Kamen Rider is like, OOO (2011) is excellent, and Gaim (2013) was REALLY well received.

My personal favorite is Agito (2001), but you could also start at the beginning and watch Kuuga. And then just go chronologically. There really is no bad in the first five series, except that the end of 555 (2003) lacked any sort of resolution oh my god WHY. Hibiki (2005), Kabuto (2006), and Kiva (2008) all have their own issues, but if you've gotten as far as Blade going chronologically, you're probably not going to dislike any of the following series.

I would say, either watch Ex-Aid and see how you like it (themes are video games and medical drama), watch Agito and see how you like it (not so much with the themes because of how early on it was with the Heisei series but involves an amnesiac dude dealing with weird monsters), go chronologically, or start with everything written by Kobayashi Yasuko (Ryuki - 13 Rider battle royale, Den-O - time traveling trains, OOO - oh god my heart).

That may have been a less than helpful wall of text, now that I think about it...

Regarding the fic, just remember that if it's entertaining you, it'll probably entertain at least a few other people! At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with writing something that's a little self-indulgent, too. I mean this WIP that I'm working on has some id-ish elements to it, but screw it, I enjoy the catharsis.

And clearly I got your passion going with the question about Kamen Rider! I do appreciate the time you took with that wall of text.
I am tempted to start from OOO, based on what you wrote, since it sounds like there's some angst, and I am the biggest sucker for angst. Unless it's not a good one to start off with?
Since I don't (yet) know if this'll end up being my thing or not, I figure it might be better to start strong, and then if I get into it, well by golly I'll have plenty of episodes ahead of me :)
So maybe start with a later series, and if I like it, go back to Kuuga?

Fair, fair. And I am entertaining myself, so... :D

Re: OOO - there is angst. In the beginning there is v. little angst and quite a bit of comedy, because Kobayashi Yasuko does this thing where she starts a series with all sorts of adorable and then stomps all over your heart with expertly applied fridge brilliance. There are elements regarding which I do feel that the ball was dropped, and it's not perfect, but I really, really liked it. The first time I saw it, I finished it and realized I was crying over bird monsters. Every time I revisit it, I remember that I am not, in fact, actually over it. (I don't know if this says more about me or the series, honestly.)

But yeah, you could start with OOO and if you like it, watch the first gen Heisei series (first gen = anything before Decade). Den-O is another really good one to start with, has angst, has more humor, and was all around an enjoyable experience. Every time I hear the opening theme, I get little happy warmfuzzy feelings. (Again, this Pavlovian response may say more about me than about the series...)

There isn't really a BAD one to start with, except Decade. Don't start with Decade. (It has many good points, it does, but oh god. Don't start there.) Or Ghost. Don't start with Ghost, either, it's adorable but kind of frustrating.

Oh, and if/when you do see Kuuga, it was Odagiri Joe's breakout role. Which should tell you something about it. :D

In that case, I'll go look both OOO and Den-O up, and see which one pulls me :)
I honestly don't know if I'll get into it, but hey, I've been hunting around for some new media to casually watch, especially since I'm getting sort of disappointed in anime lately.

I shall refrain from starting with Decade, then! XD

And good luck with your fic, too. I'm in a bit of a similar boat. I wish I had somebody really discerning to tell me if my characterization is working or is just an emotional mess. I have my beta, and she's pretty good, but not as rigorous as I'd like, with some things. Still, I'm glad I have her, at least!

I mean, you can tell me the fandom, and if I know it.... :D

Final Fantasy VII.
*hopeful*???

Ah, damn. All I know about that one is dude with a giant sword plus dead friend plus super hot villain. :( I'm sorry.

Curses! Truly ours is a star-crossed relationship XD

Well let me tell you, there's some quality angst and mindfuck to be had. I'm 50k into a story about an MC with PTSD, hallucinations, memory loss, and self-inflicted torture.

[ SECRET POST #3821 ]

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People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

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Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

Re: People totally used to be more tolerant of slow writing.

also that it's a game...

Re: also that it's a game...

Re: also that it's a game...

Re: also that it's a game...

Re: also that it's a game...

Re: also that it's a game...

Oh, good, he was an adult the whole time.

Re: Oh, good, he was an adult the whole time.

Re: Oh, good, he was an adult the whole time.

Re: Oh, good, he was an adult the whole time.

also, belatedly