fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3833 ]

Hey all! I'm out on errands and will be home in about 20 minutes. My thoughts are already written up on my laptop so they'll be up soon :)

Feel free to share any thoughts you may have!

Starting with my first impression.

Pros -
I liked that Fantasy Egypt still described the characters as looking Egyptian (Looking at you, Dreamwork's White British Samurai)

I liked the worldbuilding a lot, like answering how you can keep a large number of huge predators that need to eat a lot of meat, depictions of the casual religion.

I liked the variety of character personalities. I liked the animal care details, it's always pretty obvious that ML both likes animals and has experience caring for them.

It's a fun read, it's one I've read before and goes on my 'comfort' shelf for rereading roughly once a year or so?

Cons -
I had forgotten there was not a single named human female character in the entire book. (unless you count Vetch's family who are only mentioned when he's thinking of the past)

The repeated no-homo got a little annoying. Maybe ML's trying to distance herself from her earlier work? But yes, thanks, I get it, Ari fucks women. Lots of women. He has no interest in guys. He certainly has no interest in Vetch. Vetch would be horrified if he did. Their bond is entirely platonic no-homo. Makes me halfway tempted to write something where Vetch has a childhood crush on him and then in (spoilers) later books when he's grown and they're on more equal footing they fall in love.

The book's pretty obviously the first in a series and does a lot of setup, worldbuilding, and character development, but the plot's fairly weak.

Too true about the female characters thing. :/ Maybe that would get resolved in a sequel? Though hopefully not just with a LI.

The "no homo" thing read more to me like "Ari's relationship with Vetch is paternal rather than creepy", not because both are male but because Vetch is literally a child. It felt like a piece of worldbuilding, that it wasn't unusual for some men to have a sexual interest in boys under their command, which would pretty clearly be a violation due to age and power imbalance. Vetch was relieved that Ari wasn't acting predatory to him.

tl;dr it was more "no pedo" than "no homo" to me

Also, I didn't mention this but I really agree about the religion - that was a really interesting and well-done part of the worldbuilding. And I thought Vetch's shrine to his father was really touching.

I would have read it as no-pedo if it happened once. But I think something like four times? It got a little annoying. She could have said it once and then just used familial terms to describe their interactions instead of flat out having character state over and over that Ari liked whores and was like a bull with them, and never even looked at pretty boys.

(Also sadly, if I remember right, every single female character in the other books are LIs)

I thought they only talked about the whore thing once? :/ idk.

Also dang, that really sucks. Female authors in particular I want to hold to a higher standard wrt writing actual female characters...granted, I understand wanting to be accurate to the time period and avoid certain tropes, but it doesn't have to be a warrior...why not write someone who's just a friend, or a lady, or a merchant, or hell even a prostitute who plays a part in the story somehow.

Joust

My overall impression of the book was moderately good.

Things I really liked:

-the aesthetic (ancient Egypt-style setting, yes please)
-the story
-the relationship between Vetch and Ari and between Vetch and Avatre

Things I didn't so much like:

-the prose - honestly the writing itself was mediocre to me, which is the main thing putting me off from seeking out the sequels right away, even though I want to see more of Vetch/Kiron's and Avatre's story
-while the characters were mostly enjoyable overall, the character development was weird and choppy at points

Incidentally, I read Throne of Jade (sequel to His Majesty's Dragon, a previous BC book and also a dragon novel centered on the relationship between dragons and their human companions) right after I read this, so it was hard not to make a comparison in my head. The Temeraire series is so, so good imo and I kept thinking "ooh, I definitely want to talk about this" before remembering that it wasn't the book we were reading for BC.

That said, I want to make it clear that I still enjoyed reading Joust. It wasn't at any point a chore, it just had some room for improvement. I wonder if the writing style improves as the series goes on?

Some highlights I particularly enjoyed:

-the scene where Khefti got his just desserts from the magistrate. I enjoyed that whole scene.
-Avatre bonding with Vetch. too cute tbh.
-Vetch bonding with Ari. I like relationships like that (in stories) that are on the surface standard master/servant relationships but behind closed doors are a lot more casual and more of a mentor relationship. And if anything, Vetch helped Ari as much as the other way around; it's like Ari really wanted to be a father and also didn't really have very many actual friends.

I find myself hoping for the future that the two of them are able to work together to make peace for their nations, and improve the lot of domestic dragons/dragons in general (honestly the dragons who aren't raised like Kashet or Avatre just have a really shitty deal :/ )

One thing that seemed really weird and inconsistent to me...while I generally enjoyed the worldbuilding, the rules on serfdom seemed pretty inconsistent. They talked about Vetch not being "freeborn" but like...he was. He was born into a free farming family and made into a serf when he was a child. Serfdom is spoken of as some kind of immutable, constant trait, but it's not? If one can be made into a serf, why not unmade? Why was Haraket given the power to free a slave, but not a serf? Or did he just not want to? :|a

What were your thoughts on the story overall? Any characters you particularly liked, or didn't? What were your thoughts on these dragons compared to dragons of other series we've read (if you're a dragon fan)? If you didn't like the story, why not? If you did like it, what stood out to you? Share your thoughts!

Vetch's conversation with Bakken explained the serf thing a little better. Essentially serfs are prisoners of war and slaves are a bit more like indentured servants. Vetch is a 'war criminal', so freeing him would have to mean returning him to the Altean government. I'm assuming there's no system in place for granting citizenship to war prisoners like re-granting it to Tians who became slaves or granting citizenship to slaves from countries not at war with them.

I posted above, also wanted to add I liked the fact the dragons were sort of horse-birds. I really like stories where dragons are clever animals, as opposed to being weird-shaped people. Especially kind of dumb weird-shaped people. (So HTTYD instead of Pern) I mean I like weird-shaped-people dragons too! But I slightly prefer them as pets.

That sort of makes sense, though their ways of determining who qualifies as a war criminal is so out of whack lol.

(Also Altan instead of Altean...Voltron fan or just random typo? :P)

So I geuss in simplest terms, an Altan "slave" would really be a serf? But surely not all of them are tied to land - what if they took one captive during actual fighting? Or maybe that wasn't allowed.

I'd love for her to go into that system a little more in future books.

I like all different kinds of dragons, though I suppose I somewhat prefer the ones who are sapient, smart pets is cool too. I mostly like the variety!

(back from vacation!)

Overall, I enjoyed the story and found it to be a quick read. That said, the story did have some flaws.

I really liked Ari and Vetch's relationship, though it was odd how they did mention Ari only seeking out professional women to not form attachments and that he wasn't part of the court and avoided those women. I get that we're in a very male dominated world with the dragons, but it seemed a little forced about professional women and the different classes.

I really did like Ari and especially the end how he helped Vetch out. I did enjoy the story enough to check out the sequel, so we'll see when it comes in at the library. I liked the bits about the dragon history but you could definitely sense the world building because I didn't really understand the whole war and Jousters but maybe the sequel will help with that.

It did take a little bit to get into the novel, but once I got going, I finished it in about a day.

I also do see our tendency as a book club to pick fantasy novels so I'd be curious to see what would happen if we start to switch it up and pick genre months?

(How was your vacation? :D)

Yeah it was weird that they specifically pointed out Ari's avoidance of romance, it didn't seem to really have any relevance to the rest of the story. Like she kind of dropped wherever she was going with it.

I can think of at least one interesting plausible explanation - maybe Ari avoided relationships with nobles specifically, and wasn't it usually noblewomen who were propositioning him? Maybe Ari had major qualms with nobility, them being the ones who ordered acts of war, and didn't want to be enmeshed with them. IDK. He seemed to have a lot of general contempt for anyone else of any kind of rank.

I definitely need to see history of the war. To some extent it seems we're supposed to be sympathetic with Alta, but maybe they have committed atrocities just as bad. In war there often are no "good guys".

Let me know if you read the sequel! I should read it too. (I mostly just want to follow Kiron and Avatre's story and see if they find success in establishing a free life for themselves in Alta.)

What do you mean by "genre months" - are you talking about having themed months? I am really not sure how well that would go down, but I can bring it up. (Not for next month though since I've already started taking recs)

(Vacation was amazing. I went to Niagara Falls and really luck out with weather. I want to go back!)

I had no problem with Ari's avoiding the nobles, but that she was so insistent that he did enjoy pleasures but only with women he wouldn't have to make an attachment with seemed out of place. It could have been phrased more about him not wanting to get married and leave behind a widow, which was hinted at because Jousters very rarely live long enough to retire.

I feel like because it's from Vetch who was treated so horribly, we want to be sympathetic to Alta but we know nothing of what led to the war because for Vetch's young life, it wasn't a threat, just something distant.

And yes, for genre months, I mean theme months. Let's see how the next few months pan out, just because it seems like we've had a lot of dragon books and I'd love to read more diverse books besides dragons. Or maybe it just seems like it because those are the months I can participate (or try to participate)

(wasn't logged in, oops, that's me above)

(haha I figured it was you)

Yeah I guess maybe that was a little heavy-handed to some people even if it didn't seem that way to me.

I wonder if Ari is going to be a major character in future books. I'm ambivalent as to whether I want that. I really just want more Kiron

I don't know if I want him to be a major character but I'm curious to see if Ari will show up later. This book was so focused on Vetch/Kiron and in Tian, I'm curious to see the rest of the world.

Boo, I have so much work so I'm still only at the beginning of the book :(

I can agree with you that the prose is not great, and I found the beginning especially to be quite repetitive. It's like yeah, it sucks to be him, it sucks so much, it's so awful, we get it. I'm interested enough to keep reading - I do like dragons, and I am curious to see where it all goes. But my initial impression was more along the lines of benefit of the doubt than anything else.

huh, I actually thought the beginning went quickly. Like only a few pages in he was literally carried away from that situation.

I do think it's worth finishing, partly because I like the story itself (if not so much the writing) and partly because I thought it was a very easy read. Let me know what you think when you finish it!!

I do want to keep reading :) I'm just a little slow at it.

I'm reading on my phone (which... sucks... but what can I do), so the pages are a lot shorter, and I'm reading the book in snatches, so it could be that these made the beginning seem a lot longer than it actually was!

I'll drop you a line when I'm done XD

I almost forgot to write this up, so this is a bit late!

I enjoyed the book very much as light reading. It was a really refreshing take on dragons, though it also did my head in a bit because “joust” is such a mediaeval word and concept, and applied to ancient Egypt it felt very dissonant. The same with dragons themselves! But once I'd rearranged my ideas, I got into the book a lot more.

I found the beginning hard going. I felt dreadfully sorry for that poor hungry boy, and I don't know how he managed to keep going through his morning's work. And then he was snatched away by a dragon and rider, and had to learn a whole new way of life before tea-time! That really didn't ring true to me. He would surely have collapsed from exhaustion. (This was the problem I had with Assassin's Apprentice – kids just cannot keep going beyond a certain period.)

I would've liked more of an introduction to the other dragons and riders; I would've felt less confused during the mating flight if I'd known more about the characters.

I think there needs to be more of a down-side to taming dragons from the egg. With hawks, they turn into screamers – they yell for food whenever they see their “parent” and it drives people up the wall. I think the benefits of having a tame, as opposed to a drugged, dragon are too great otherwise.

I like the sea-witch storms and hope there is more about these witches in future books.

Vetch throwing himself off Avatre's back is really affecting. I did worry a bit about the impact onto Kashet's head! But the payoff, with Ari looking after Vetch and helping to escape, was great, and I'm hoping to read more about their further adventures when I can get holsd of the books.

Thanks to whoever suggested this book, and as always to diet_poison for running the club!

Yeah, they should have given him a while to rest up. Humans can't just keep going forever.

I did not know that about hawks! TIL.

Agreed about the sea witches. I want to see more about the magical/spiritual powers of priests, witches, etc. on both sides. And I'd love to see more contrast of the elemental, cultural, and militaristic contrast between Alta as a watery nation and Tia as more desert-y.

I'd love to see more contrast of the elemental, cultural, and militaristic contrast between Alta as a watery nation and Tia as more desert-y.

Ooh, that's an interesting thought! Yes, I'd like to see that too.

ayrt I did not know that about hawks! TIL.

Yeah, I was really interested when Lackey introduced the falconer character. She must've known about the drawbacks to imprinting an animal on its human carer. But she kinda dropped the ball and it would have been such a neat explanation for why more riders didn't imprint their dragons.

Posted already, but as someone who's read the books and see people going "Not sure if I want to keep going"
2 and 3 have more plot! A lot of stuff gets explained. More characters get introduced. Alta is explored and developed. There's more magic. I would recommend if you found 1 an enjoyable read to keep going with 2 and 3. (Alta and Sanctuary)

The 4th book is flat out awful, the characterization is shot to hell and the plot's just weird and doesn't really fit with the others. Only read if you're interested in weird fanfic about the characters.

Thanks for the heads-up, anon! Have just ordered books 2 and 3 on ILL. Will avoid 4.

I'll have to read them then! I hope there's a good resolution at the end of 3 though because otherwise I won't be satisfied with just reading that far...

[ SECRET POST #3833 ]

Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

my thoughts

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Re: my thoughts

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Re: my thoughts

Re: my thoughts

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Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion

Re: Book club - Joust discussion - further reading

Re: Book club - Joust discussion - further reading

Re: Book club - Joust discussion - further reading