fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #514 ]

[ SECRET POST #514 ]

⌈ Secret Post #514 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[that's McKay from SGA, by the way; ass-recognition courtesy of

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 305 secrets from Secret Submission Post #074.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 - random link, wtf? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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SPOILERS FOR END OF UTENA

128. The series isn't saying you need romance to be happy, though, and I never even saw it that way; the main theme involves that of adulthood, and of needing to break free from delusions of what that world entails. The ending isn't that Anthy is happy because she's found a princess, or found true love, or any of that; she's happy because she's finally gained control of her life, and she's broken free from the delusion of adulthood Ohtori represents. Ohtori is comfortable because no one changes while they reside there; they stay static, clinging to their delusions and contorted ideals. Anthy leaving to the real adult world is representative of the courage for one to change and take control of their life: to face reality without these crutches. Utena served as the catalyst for that revelation, but it was Anthy who made the final step to go beyond Akio's gate. If anything, the series cherishes independence, but deeply values the bonds that can lead one to change.

It's like she told Akio; "remain comfortable in your coffin, go on playing prince." It's too scary for him to change. His vision of adulthood is this rock n' roll excess of sex, glamour, etc. He doesn't want to confront the possibility of change at all. He's forged an identity out of this futility that permeates Ohtori, and it's that same futility that made Anthy stab Utena at first. As bizarre as it seems, their pain is a comfort to them, because they've gotten used to their roles, and it's too frightening for Akio in the end to break out of his. He'd rather embrace his tragedy over and over then become a real adult and try to go uphill from there. It's much like how Juri lost her second duel once her necklace was broken; she depended on that necklace, on what it symbolized, and refused to let go for the longest time despite the harm it was doing her. And Touga's delusion of being some chivalrous prince; Saionji, with eternity; Miki, wanting everything to stay pure forever, and projecting the younger image of his sister on Anthy and thinking he loves her for her; and Nanami, only getting her value from being related to Touga. They all have a crutch; Utena did too, and we all do. It's a matter of moving past it.

That's how I viewed it, anyway. I didn't explain this as well as I would have liked, but I tried. And I, too, prefer their friendship.

Your explanation was amazing, and another reminder why Utena is my favorite series, ever.

That was a great post, and I think you're absolutely right.

Even though I do like the romance of Anthy and Utena (though I understand why people wouldn't), I think if they had a scene at the end where they SHOW them finding each other and being happy together would've ruined it. It just wouldn't have had the same power as Anthy breaking free of her pain and the hope that the friends will 'shine together'.

It made me get over the initial sadness of Utena's failure.

Because she really didn't fail at all.

Nicely put. It seems some people, like the OP, miss the point of Utena, which is sad because I feel it's the best anime out there. You should write an essay for Empty Movement.

Empty Movement makes me all sorts of happy. I've been debating whether to join those forums for ages :)

I didn't even realize they had a forum. I haven't been to that site in ages, but I still love it and the essays.

Oops, that was me.

Fabulous explanation.

... ILU!

Way to 'splain it!

I don't disagree with what you've said, and that's how I thought of the series for a very long time. However, rewatching it recently, I started thinking about why Anthy's line about finding Utena and seeing the relationships between the supporting cast in the final montage bothered me so much, particularly Juri and Shiori. I felt like Anthy wasn't living for herself if she was going to find Utena so they could live happily ever after. At least that was the implication I got after I learned the director did put romantic subtext between the two. It weakened the ending for me, since it seemed so unnecessary to the rest of the message.

Living with Utena doesn't mean that she's living for Utena, romantic implications or not; she's living for the message Utena gave to her, and making it her own. Utena is not her princess, and will never be, because now those two realize such roles do not exist in the real world. So it doesn't end with Anthy living for her princess; it ends with Anthy living for herself, but also wanting to share that life with someone close and dear to her, and someone who helped her take a step out of that coffin before she fully could leave it herself. The show focuses a lot on relationships, but it's not saying you need a romance to be happy. It's more a testament of how people can help other people, but how each individual must make that final step on their own. That's why Anthy leaves Ohtori without needing Utena to hold her hand along the way; Utena's paved the way, sure, but when Anthy leaves, there's no Utena there to coax her out. It's all Anthy's choice this time. It's significant the ending focuses on Anthy leaving by herself. I might see where you're coming from had the finale consisted of Anthy only leaving because that's what Utena wants, but I don't see that. I also think Anthy wants to catch up to Utena not only to share this newfound freedom with her, but to also mature as a person like Utena has; it kind of mirrors the movie, where Juri, Saionji, and Miki tell Utena, "we'll catch up to you!" They'll too escape Ohtori, as Utena and Anthy have. They're just not there yet.

And that's also what that final montage means to me: showing all the student council members at peace, for once interacting with each other in a non-destructive way. None of them in that ending ring as particularly romantic, either, even Juri and Shiori's; I viewed their scene more as each getting over the issues related to each other, but not necessarily resulting in a romantic relationship. Even if there were implications I missed in that scene? I can't see any romantic implications for Touga and Saionji's scene, or Miki/Tsuwabuki's/Kozue's.Of course there were sexual tensions present with each of the characters and these relationships in numerous other eps, but in that montage, I don't particularly see that. I see them reconciling their issues with each other; there's no mind games between Touga and Saionji, Nanami isn't fawning over her brother excessively, Tsuwabuki is working under an older student in a more healthy way, and Kozue isn't trying to get Miki's attention by using some other boy. That montage is more illustrating how Utena's affected them, but they're still in Ohtori because they have to take the iniative to leave themselves.

I've probably repeated myself a hundred times, and I hope this all makes sense, but...I just don't see the implication Anthy is living for Utena. If you didn't see that way before you knew of the subtext, why does that added information change it for you? I really don't get the feeling that Anthy is leaving just to be with Utena in a romantic sense, or even a platonic sense; I don't interpret her line about finding Utena as, "I'm leaving [just] so I can live with Utena!", I take it as, "I'm leaving so I can take control of my own life, and share this with someone who truly cares about me and taught me that message"/"I'm leaving to find the real world, because I want to grow and change, like someone I know, and I want to find her so we can help each other as equals." Her incentive to enter the real world is not only because Utena is there. Is that where our difference in interpretation lies? If I misunderstood anything you said, I apologize is advance.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I agree with it for the most part. But I'm looking at the ending scene as the result of a deliberate decision by the writer to tell us that Anthy is leaving to find Utena, implicitly because there is a romantic connection between them. Before I was aware of the romance I enjoyed the ending much more, not because I disapprove of the idea on principle, but because I felt it was perfectly fine without the romance. The romance added nothing to it for me, and in fact was so subtle that I wasn't aware of it at all through multiple viewings, and I'm not the only one. Why, then, was it in there at all? Essentially, I didn't feel that the romance served any purpose than to have the two girls wind up with someone at the end-- a friendship wouldn't be sufficient for some reason. I'm at a loss to understand why. Again, you're certainly not required to agree with me, it's just how I feel.

Yeah, reading your other replies I realized what you were getting at, so I apologize for missing the point completely :) Thanks for being quite patient with me, actually.

I have to admit that I, too, have wondered why the subtext was even there in the first place. Perhaps because the only other lesbian relationship in the series seemed negative to him (Juri-->Shiori), and he didn't want his series to come off like that? It'd expain that heterosexual comment. Perhaps to show that, yes, a romantic relationship can be healthy, despite all the drama it causes between characters in the series? Maybe because Ikuhara himself just likes some fanservice?

I'm not entirely sure, I'll be honest about that, but I don't think he did it because he thought friendship wouldn't be good enough. I don't think he intended to make it go from "girls don't princes!" to "they do need romance, however," but I can't quite say what makes me think that. The best answer I've managed to think of at all is that he wanted to contrast a healthy romantic relationship (Utena/Anthy, although those 2 aren't healthy till the end, really) to the unhealthier ones (Anthy/Akio), or the above Juri--> Shiori point, but I'm not even entirely satisfied with that, and it's not enough for me to simply say, "well, I just don't think he intended that." It almost seems odd he'd devalue friendship given how much thought is given to Saionji's own friendship with Touga, and how strongly Saionji feels about friendship, so I really do have to wonder if fanservice plays into it (since the movie is much more explicit with it). Even so, I do wonder like you why Utena/Anthy couldn't just be friends; maybe the subtext is a "take it if you like it, leave it if you don't'" thing? I really don't know. So yes, that point is one I have also mulled over, and still think on even now.

You didn't miss it completely, and I'm glad you aregued your points, actually. I'm not decrying the series, I'm trying to understand the decision behind the ending. All viewpoints help to add perspective. ^^

And yeah, you raise very good points, and I do tend to turn a blind eye to it because I prefer it without the uncomfortable implications about the underlying message, but it's difficult to un-see something. ^^; I'm glad it's not just me, though, I was afraid I was going to be eviscerated by Utena/Anthy shippers. ^^;

It's comments like this that make me remember why I think RGU is the greatest anime I've ever seen.

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[ SECRET POST #514 ]

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(long, I'm sorry!)

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