[ SECRET POST #3891 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3891 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 21 secrets from Secret Submission Post #557.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Can't speak for OP but people weren't being accused of being pedophiles for shipping 17 year olds, for one thing.

Fandom's developed a nasty habit of using real life morality as an excuse to try and police each other's fandom activities that wasn't there 10 years ago. They'd call you nasty and gross and stupid for shipping the "wrong" thing, but not someone who supports real life abuse because you ship a problematic ship.

It's slowly gone from "what kind of shipper you are" being under fire, to "what kind of person you are" being under fire. It's not a good trend.

[(Anonymous)]

I get that people have their grievances and issues with fandom as it exists right now. I also think that it's really easy - just on a human level - to focus on those grievances and ignore the various ways in which fandom has consistently been full of ridiculous, complex, and dramatic wank.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter that much, I guess. Be in fandom if you want to and think it's worth it. If not, don't.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I don't for a second deny that fandom has been full of wank since forever. You can't deny that the type of wank has changed, though. Once being a shipper of something meant you shipped something and possibly were a stupidpants idiot that couldn't see the One True Love, and now it's used to judge what kind of moral character you have in real life and supposedly reflects how you treat people who are non-white, even if you're non-white yourself, and whether you're attracted to children, even if you're under 18 yourself.

A boundary got crossed that made a lot of people uncomfortable, and it's easy for me at least, to see why.

[(Anonymous)]

You can't deny that the type of wank has changed, though.

I honestly don't know whether it has. It's possible. I definitely agree that peoples' experience of fandom is different from what they remember it being. I definitely agree that the rhetoric has changed. But I don't know whether or not there really has been a fundamental change in how fandom actually works. I'm not comfortable saying that there is, just based off of peoples' memories. I just don't know.

I mean, just for instance, people might not have used social justice langage to do it as much, but I think people were pretty comfortable with ad hominem attacks back in the day in fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

Ad hominem isn't the same thing as instantly casting aspersions on your real life character and how you treat real life people.

Me calling you stupid based on what you ship because you ship it, isn't me trying to prove to everyone else that you're a real life pedophilia apologist, and trying to convince everyone they should treat you as one. Being called a dumb bitch or retard are obvious ad hominems and the personal opinion of the attacker, but being called "racist" and "sexist" are far more specific and serious accusations with a veneer of respectability which claim to hold the moral high ground against you, which calling someone a retard doesn't.

It's not a fundamental change in how fandom works; it's a fundamental change in the tools with which people attack each other in fandom.

If you really see no difference, I don't know how better to explain this, sorry. Maybe someone else will step in.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Hmm, I think I may have answered my own question. "Dumb bitch" is an insult and an ad hominem, but it's not an accusation of a specific thing. "You're a racist or pedophile defender" definitely is an accusation of morally reprehensible deeds more than just an ad hominem, and asserts the accuser has some evidence to back this up.

When fandom fights have started sounding like political smear campaigns and ads accusing each other of crimes and misdeeds than person to person arguments.

I'd say the flavor has changed some, but the terrible person thing still existed.

[(Anonymous)]

NA

Back when (circa 1993), it used to be you were gross and wrong and stupid if you shipped slash versus het, or, out of fandom circles, you were gross and wrong and stupid and weird if you admitted to being into fanfic at all. The scope has definitely changed, because fandom has grown a lot and is no longer hiding in the shadows. A lot of the really bad wank was somewhat easier to ignore because there were so many fewer people doing fandom and even the wanksters were quieter because they didn't want to catch the attention of the moralizing non-fandomites.

Re: I'd say the flavor has changed some, but the terrible person thing still existed.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I remember those and I agree that they were bad, but those examples I feel only prove my point. When you shipped slash, you were gross and wrong... for shipping slash, because you were a slash shipper. When you shipped at all, you were gross... for shipping, because you were a shipper. People went after you for the things you did.

Now people skip directly to who they assume you are, and assume your ships are reflective of everything else in your life. Your pairings are a lot of white people? You must be racist in real life. You ship a 17 year old with a teacher? You must be a pedophile apologist and defend real life pedophiles.

The focus is different, and what is being attacked is different.

Re: I'd say the flavor has changed some, but the terrible person thing still existed.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt, but yes, I would agree with your assessment of fandom today vs the past. There's definitely been a shift. I've wondered if it is the fact that fandom is much larger now, that it's much more well known and acknowledged and not really the subculture it used to be, and with the larger influx of people, the cultural norms around fandom etiquette shifted. The dogpiling and virtue signalling seems to be a norm of the internet as a whole these days. :-/

[(Anonymous)]

This, exactly.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yeah? I was told I should have my RL children taken away because I wrote a large age gap pairing (both characters were explictly over 18). That was in 2004.

[(Anonymous)]

But was it a widespread trend in 2004 like it is today, where if you told someone you were told that, they'd be like "oh, yeah, theres a bunch of people who go around doing that"?