[ SECRET POST #539 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #539 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #077.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - response ], [ 1 2 - personal attack ], [ 1 - troll; yes, I remember it's you ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[batty-gal.livejournal.com]

I think that most of the people questioning why the majority of pairings fall under one tops/one bottoms only are well-aware that there's real gay men out there that do one or the other. However, it's nice to see variety in fandom -- especially without stereotypes based on the whole Seme/Uke thing. It's simply ridiculous to have one character top another just because he's taller, or have one character bottom solely because cried a handful of times in the show. That's my issue with the matter -- and why having characters switch up sometimes injects more realism into things, especially when the author establishes one to be primarily a top or bottom but having them switch every now and then -- without those seme/uke BS stereotypes present.

[batty-gal.livejournal.com]

Holy run-on sentence, Batman! And that should be *he cried

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really get it. The people who write about this probably stick to one position most the time, but gay men are supposed to be magical sex machines who switch it up all the time?

Not really. We're just as boring as everyone else.

Now, if people were talking about how the stereotypes were wrong instead of saying, "No one ever sticks to just one position!", I would get it. But people are getting into this habit of saying that gay men never just top or bottom instead. Which I know isn't true. I'm gay and I have no desire to top. The couples I knew all had their preferred position. It was totally normal to like a certain position.

I mean, if we assume the people talking about this are, for the most part, women, I'd be curious to see what would happen if I asked them
"Answer these two questions:
How many times have you topped:
VS
How many times have you bottomed:"

Because I have a feeling they probably haven't switched it up a lot (or, if they have switched it probably was only one or two times), yet they expect gay men to do the opposite?
Does that make any sense? Why would people expect gay men to do it when they probably don't do it themselves?

[batty-gal.livejournal.com]

I think we're getting our wires crossed together here. I'm arguing that it isn't because of the position due to people having the tendency to only write one tops/one bottoms based on stupid stereotypes from yaoi -- not because they believe that gay men are all like that. That's my issue -- the stereotypes. To me, it isn't about the position -- it's about the reasoning behind the position -- as well as the lack of variety in fanfic.

As for being a gay male with no desire to top and having your friends with preferred positions, no one is negating that. Most of my gay male friends switch off, so it depends on the couple/person you know. We are simply saying that it's tiresome to see shipping wars based on who's topping and/or bottoming when it's the same couple regardless. Some of us are also tired of the lack of variety due to stereotypes based on a character's height, physical features, attitude, etc. That's why a lot of us argue against it, not because we don't believe that some gay men have their set preferences.

As for women and topping/bottoming -- male/female sex is a whole 'nother ballgame, so the comparison here is not a very good indication of anything.

In short, I see where you're coming from -- but please don't assume that all of us who argue against set topping/bottoming do so because we don't believe that there are real gay men out there that do have these preferences. Some of us are simply sick of the stereotypes that go along with set top/bottom relations in fandom - and strive for more realism all around.

[agnes-perdita.livejournal.com]

Not the Original commenter but I was intrigued by this conversation.

Some of us are simply sick of the stereotypes that go along with set top/bottom relations in fandom - and strive for more realism all around.

See, I totally get this but it's weird to me that the majority of fandom discussion about this revolves around sexual positioning. That people who advocate and choose to fight stereotyping or bad characterisation use of all things, who tops or who bottoms as the basis of their argument. Does having set sexual positions preclude a fic from having good characterisation or something? Conversely, is someone lauded just for being so avant garde as to 'switch up' their characters without having to actually work harder on the human believability of the relationships? If fandom is striving for more realism all round, then why continue pointing out the 'seme/uke' distinction as lazy shorthand for bad writing when it would be clearer to actually get behind the mechanics of the fic and highlight what doesn't work on that level: lack of background/motivation/ stilted/overwrought dialogue/ emotional shallowness etc. Boiling it all down to a disdain for the seme/uke cliché confuses the problem with its manifestation and it makes the supposed solution, "switching roles" become just as susceptible to becoming a fandom stereotype as the predecessor its trying to combat.

[ketita.livejournal.com]

then why continue pointing out the 'seme/uke' distinction as lazy shorthand for bad writing when it would be clearer to actually get behind the mechanics of the fic and highlight what doesn't work on that level

Because the problems with most of the badly characterized yaoi fics really do stem from the whole stupid seme/uke stereotype, from what I've seen. The mischaracterization usually is as follows: the taller/older one is the stoic, manly, slightly manipulative seme, and the younger/shorter/long-haired one is the girly, cutesy, uke who tends to cry at the drop of a hat and get emotional over stupid things (or very uncharacteristic things). These stereotypes stem from - and reach to - their positioning in bed. Whoever is on top is the "man", and whoever's on the bottom is "a really pathetic excuse for a female stereotype". Disdain for the 'seme/uke stereotype' sums up the entirety of the issue quite neatly.

The whole movement for 'switching roles', the way I see it at least, is simply a call for people to recognize that the position in bed =/= the personality of the character. There are plenty of good fics where the characters don't switch roles, and in most cases, they're not accused of having seme/uke stereotypes anyway.

109

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe I just don't like the fact that people think that a character being uke somehow makes them not equal.

To be fair, I don't read fanfics. I actually don't read that much BL stuff. When I am reading "random BL manga #1" here, I don't have very high expectations for it as far as breaking the mold. I pretty much expect it to be "random BL manga #1".
A lot of BL stuff seems to revolve almost solely around the characters having to be gay these days. I'm more into the series that have a variety because it isn't entirely about them being gay. Usually these will have women and straight people and maybe lesbians and characters with all sorts of preferences, because it isn't just about fulfilling fantasies.

Basically, if you're reading another cliche BL manga I wouldn't expect it to be more than another cliche BL manga. Just like I wouldn't be shocked by lesbian sex in a hentai manga, or "a boy adventuring around the world to become the BEST at something-or-other" in a shounen manga, or a girl turning out to be a princess in a shoujo manga. Usually the majority of a genre is probably 90% cliche stuff.

Re: 109

[ketita.livejournal.com]

But... it's not about the idea that "being uke makes them not equal". I mean, if there's a character whose personality fits the uke stereotype, that's one thing. Somebody portraying Shuichi from Gravitation as childish, histrionic, etc. is completely fine, because that's his canon characterization.

However, when you take a character who in canon is shown to be headstrong, stoic, not prone to crying, physically strong, and turn them into a sniveling, simpering idiot for no other reason than they have long hair - therefore they're "uke", and "uke" is first and foremost a personality trait - THAT's what annoys people.

When writing a yaoi fanfiction, one of the first and most important things to try to avoid is, I think, the seme/uke trope, because it's so popular, and it's the most common way of butchering canon characters' canon personalities.