fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4012 ]

[ SECRET POST #4012 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4012 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Golden Girls]

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[The Last Jedi]

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[Against the Wall, Kyle MacLachlan & Samuel L. Jackson]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 09 secrets from Secret Submission Post #574.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I suspect much like the woobie!Loki stans and Draco in Leather Pants People, they DO realize. A big part of fangirling for those people is coming up with justifications for why their favorite actually isn't as bad as he appears.

So, they know he's the bad guy, but he's got reasons for it and isn't just an irredeemable monster.

(As an aside, the thing I really side-eye with the whole anti-Reylo / anti-Problematic Pairing push is.... I'd would rather live in a society where people are maybe too trusting and too naive and believe that people can change and grow and redeem themselves and make up for their bad deeds, than live in a world where being bad means you're evil forever no matter what and no one should ever love you or help you or believe in you and especially not Pure And Good People like Rey or Spiderman or whoever.)

I like this comment.

As someone who ships lots of (ir)redeemable assholes with heroic savior types, I have a hard time rooting for Kylo's redemption because in addition to finding his goals and worldview disgusting, I find him obnoxious and annoying. And to find someone redeemable, I have to see that they have at least a couple good qualities. I guess he hesitated to blow Leia to bits once? But he doesn't seem to want to be a good person.

If he had a sense of humor, or cared for his subordinates, or enjoyed creating something, or had a pet Porg, or any human qualities besides being power-hungry, throwing tantrums, and feeling betrayed, I would give more of a shit about him. I usually enjoy stories that redeem villains. But at this point the only redemption for Kylo I can root for is one where he dies trying to save Leia.

And if Kylo was badly injured and some random moisture farmer or cantina barista hid him in their hovel and nursed him back to health, or something, I wouldn't find that as gross as I find Reylo. Reylo told Rey she was "nothing, but not to me." You want to live in a society where people are too trusting and naive and believe people can change and redeem themselves? Cool. Sounds great. I'd like that too.

But I'd also like to live in a world where people who are told "you're nothing, but not to me, I think you're special," can respond "fuck off and never talk to me again you disgusting shitsack," and not be expected to forgive people, or help them grow, who say shit like that and are explicitly paralleled with Nazis.

Characters who want to help redeem and work with and be morality training wheels for villains, or real people who want to work to help others who have done questionable shit make amends for it, are great. But the character being redeemed has to want it. Kylo doesn't want to try to make amends, or stop killing people. He wants to rule the galaxy. Maybe he wants Rey. He doesn't seem to want to be a better person.

But the character being redeemed has to want it.

Really? People love storylines where villains grow to realize, through hardship or a hero's example or whatever else, that what they're doing isn't fulfilling their needs and they really do want to be better. Just because a character clings to villainy and claims they don't want to better themselves doesn't mean that they really believe that deep down, or that they can't or won't be convinced to change their mind.

NAYRT

I see your point but I don't think we've seen a ton of evidence of that from Kylo, at least so far.

Certainly, I think the fact that, when given the chance to redeem himself, he decided to be an actual factual supreme evil overlord instead seems significant.

AYRT

I don't think anything has been ruled out yet. One of his major motivations seems to be (to me, a casual Star Wars fan) that even though he keeps making bad choices, deep down he wants to be good, and he just keeps pushing that desire down because he thinks that love and trust would hurt too much. That's part of his conflict with Snoke; Snoke is frustrated that he doesn't seem able to fully commit himself to the dark side no matter what awful things he does to kill the part of himself that wants to be good. He sees good as weakness because being good brought him pain, but he's clearly constantly angry and unhappy being bad. I think he could still get his shit together.

It's Star Wars, so of course he can still get his shit together.

But the decision he makes in TLJ felt really momentous and significant to me.

What exactly are you trying to say?

He was presented with a pretty explicit choice between joining Rey and being good, or becoming the new Emperor and going full dark side, and he chose to be dark side.

I just don't see where this idea is that he actually hates being bad when he made a choice to continue being super evil when given the chance.

Because people are complicated and sometimes lie to themselves or make decisions that contradict what's best for them or how they really feel? Because it's Star Wars and more evil characters have been redeemed after previously making the choice to continue being super evil every time they got the chance? Because people enjoy storylines where apparently irredeemable villains change their minds and try to make amends?

I'm not saying he definitely will be redeemed, just that it's not an absurd impossibility and I can see why some people do argue that he will be redeemed. And I can certainly understand why some people hope he gets a redemption arc. The seeds of woobie!Kylo are there whether any of us like it or not; arguing that his fans completely pulled it out of their asses just makes naysayers look childish. I have to wonder if people who passionately argue that redemption is impossible for him are just bitter about the character's (or a certain ship's) popularity.

I'm not saying redemption is impossible for him. It's Star Wars, redemption is possible for everyone.

I'm saying that, so far in the story, he has not been presented as a character who secretly wants to be good and hates being bad.

But I'd also like to live in a world where people who are told "you're nothing, but not to me, I think you're special," can respond "fuck off and never talk to me again you disgusting shitsack," and not be expected to forgive people, or help them grow, who say shit like that and are explicitly paralleled with Nazis.

Um? That is EXACTLY what Rey did. She fucking upped and left because fuck that shit. She wanted Ben Solo. She never wanted Kylo Ren and that was eminently obvious. He has to make the change himself before she will give him the time of day. I thought that was made crystal clear.

I thought shutting the door (or well, the Falcon gangplank) in his face was pretty definitive.

AYRT--well, yeah, and I'm glad she didn't go with him. But if his redemption ends up being all about his wanting Rey, I can't get into that. I like the villain half of my hero/villain ships to have some good/human qualities independent of their desire to bone the hero, whether they're an amazing artist, or kind to their villain sidekick, or sponser an endangered crystal ice-fox breeding program, or whatever. Onscreen Kylo's only good quality so far has been one brief hesitation to blow his mother to smithereens. There's nothing in him for Rey aside from his being hot.

I see what you're saying but I don't understand the part where it translates into wanting them to make out

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #4012 ]

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic

Re: One of my favorite published authors wrote Reylo fic