fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4020 ]

[ SECRET POST #4020 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4020 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02. [SPOILERS for The Last Jedi]

[Star Wars, TFA and TLJ]

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03. [SPOILERS for Orwell]

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04. [WARNING for discussion of rapefic]

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05. [WARNING for discussion of sexual violence]

[Goblin Slayer]

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06.[WARNING for discussion of Weinstein/sexual assault]

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07. [WARNING for discussion of rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #575.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

How do you write a redemption arc for a villain (especially one that wasn't redeemed in canon) while avoiding "Draco in Leather Pants" or any of the pitfalls associated with "bad" redemption arcs in fic? More in general, what is the best way to realistically redeem a villain?

1. Don't have them fall in love and then turn good for love. Okay, could possibly be done well, but almost always ends up in "Draco in Leather Pants"
2. Make it clear they actually need redemption. Either they die in their redemptive act, or they live and have to work on making it up to people and may not always be forgiven.
3. Make the journey believable for the character. You have to really understand the character to be able to write about why they might end up seeking redemption.
4. Make the reactions of other people to them believable.
5. It will be harder for some characters than others. For example, I can't think of a way to redeem Sauron, and you'd have to work really, really hard to somehow make that work.

Edited 2018-01-06 04:06 (UTC)

I think that the most important thing is figuring out reasons why the villain would plausibly want redemption. Without that solid base, no redemption story is going to be satisfying, no matter how good the villain looks in leather pants.

Have them realistically struggle and struggle hard to not do evil and fall back into convenient and evil ways. The #1 unrealistic thing is always that the character turns over a new leaf then sticks to it 100%.

Most people can't even stick to going to the gym after the first two weeks of a new year, you think a mass murdering villain can resist just murdering people with eye lasers that easily?

Do what they did with Vegeta. I don't know what the magic was but it was the best redemption arc ever.

Vegeta was a great example of the comment above. He was ALWAYS pissed that he couldn't just murder everyone. That would clearly be the easiest and simplest solution, but noooo, everybody had to be good.

I like that he was still an asshole afterwards and that most of the other characters didn't actually want him around, it's just that Goku is a bleeding heart. He also mellows over time which is neat, still an ass, but one that cares about his family.

And he still has moments of being an asshole.

Yup, it's what made him fun.

Goku wasn't a bleeding heart about it. He let him live because he wanted to fight Vegeta again.

Wouldn't that depend completely on the villain in question and the world/plot to figure out what actions are necessary? I can't think there's a formula beyond the how does the character come to recognize his/her actions were awful, how does he/she come to empathize with the victims and ultimately feel remorse - and what kind of vehicle is available to make amends?

It's easier for me to list ways I hate seeing it done, which for the record, is anything involving saving the life of a romantic interest.

I’d say they should recognize the negative consequences of the choices they’ve made. A lot of writers try to “shortcut” redemption by lessening the baddie’s agency—he didn’t have a choice when he did those bad things, so they’re not really his fault. That’s workable, but it’s not as powerful as a decision to make better choices and act as a better person.

idk about redemption in general, but recently some fandom friends and I were discussing woobifying and it seemed like we all agreed that the nature of villainy is a huge factor in canon as well as fanon. Basically, why is the villain a villain?

imo it's harder to redeem or otherwise plausibly change a villain who is genuinely evil for evil's sake, or is so sociopathic or narcissistic that it's impossible to see why they would ever choose another person over themselves, than it is to work with the villains who have underlying backstories, reasons, or conversely have no real reason to be evil and nothing tying them to the villain path besides forced narrative. basically, anon, figure out why they're a villain and what, if anything, about them can change given the right factors. Villains who think they're doing exactly what they should are harder to change than villains who simply haven't been shown a different path in life.

It depends. I was always more willing to believe in a redemption arc for a villain who had some positive traits or showed that they cared in some way for someone at some point, or if their ultimate goal was a positive one, or they became a villain because they were trying to protect someone or prevent a tragedy or something. So if they gave their henchmen holidays off, or paid for their villain sidekick to go to school, or refused to kill little old ladies, or had a pet robot or fire-breathing monstrosity they fussed over, or their villainous quest was secretly about seeing their family again, or—well, you get the idea.

I’ve never been able to buy the redemption of characters who are just evil and bent on world dominion and eat puppies and rape schoolgirls and play ball with the heads of their enemies and so on.

And redemption involves the villain realizing they fucked up, apologizing to their victims/their victims’ families, and trying to undo as much damage as they can and make amends as best they can when fixing the damage isn’t possible. And possibly facing justice, but with a lot of villains that would involve capital punishment or life imprisonment, so if you want to write a story where the villain has a life outside of prison, recognition of the damage they’ve done, attempts to repair it, apologies to victims, and attempts at restitution let you write a longer and more engaging story without redemption=death.

I think one thing to do is to have the villain face victims who don't forgive him. Like, he can get his love interest and even reconcile with his family but an acknowledgment that his crimes are still a thing about him and for some people they will never forgive him helps to keep it from looking like the redemption actually fixed what happened.

Redemption, to me, is acknowledging what you did was wrong and then trying to make amends or at least working to never do that thing again. It doesn't mean you're entitled to forgiveness or anything is fixed. So, showing that despite his sincere desire to undo what he did, there are people who just won't forgive him or won't let him forget what he did is a good start.

First, assuming the villain wasn't on the fence to begin with, whatever spurs the redemption has to be something compelling enough that a Heel-Face turn isn't completely out of left field. Also, the villain's basic personality, likes, dislikes, speech patterns, etc. shouldn't do a total 180. If your redeemed villain sounds more like a Mirrorverse counterpart than the canon character, you're doing it wrong.

How do other characters react to your reformed villain? Is almost everyone cool with them now that they've dismantled the death ray? Are they implied to be bad people if they don't immediately shrug and say, okay, I guess they're good now? If so, you might want to back that down a bit. There are a lot of people with legit reasons to hate and distrust your villain. And especially if your villain was a death and oppression type, some people will never trust or forgive them. The reformed villain will have to find a way to work around that.

The biggest problem with bad redemption arcs is that they're not redemption arcs at all. They're "this character was always good and now the rest of the characters know it" arcs.

That last line. Yes!

It depends on the villain for me.

Some I could see actually changing their ways and trying to do good, others are so intrisicly vile or awful that no redemption would work or make sense without warping the character horribly. Either way they'd need to face some kind of repercussions for their actions and the others characters shouldn't be like 'oh they're good now, let's forget everything bad they did!' because that always feels cheap to me.

For a canon counterpoint I always think of Zuko from AtLA, because I loved how his was done.

Hmm... well.... (I hope you don't mind if I use Marvel and Harry Potter characters for my examples, because it was the easiest to think up scenarios.) (Also I hope this is coherent I'm so tired my eyes are fucking blurry)

-Don't use other characters as a mouthpiece for the bad guy's redemption. Like it's really common to have all the good guys welcome them with open arms at the end of the story, and that's super lame. Captain America is never going to offer Deadpool a position with the Avengers. Draco is never going to become besties with the Golden Trio. No one wants Loki to have a snuggly slumber party with them. A redeemed villain becoming close to one or two good guys makes sense and can help drive the plot forward (part of that whole "redeemed through the power of love/friendship" thing). But you don't want to override the agency of your entire cast.

-Keep track of who's witnessed what good or bad behavior. Word of mouth isn't enough to change people's minds about a person. If Ron sees Draco rescue a first year from the Whomping Willow, when he tells Harry and Hermione about it they probably a) aren't going to believe Draco really saved someone and b) it isn't going to change their mind about Draco being a dick. Show not tell applies to the people within the story as well as without.

-The villain doesn't need the forgiveness or blessing of *anyone* to be "redeemed". In fact, it can make for a more satisfying story if they aren't forgiven or can never move past their bad behavior. Characters who have to struggle to be good (through circumstances that test their morals, or because they are surrounded by people who don't believe they can be good) tend to be more interesting than characters who are handed an easy path to goodness. Think of Snape. Readers want to read about a guy who did the right thing even though he was an awful person who was hated by everyone.

-Their personality shouldn't do a 180. That's not redemption, that's just a personality transplant. If you have to change something about the character, limit it to a single trait. If they're a vindictive bully as a villain, they should still be a vindictive bully (unless that's the trait you're changing). Think of Tony Stark, who's personality stays exactly the same except his experiences in the cave change his perspective on weapons manufacturing.

-Depending on the villain, it can be good to have the characters find a middle ground on some things. For example, it's a little hypocritical for Captain America to look down on Deadpool for killing people while he's a former soldier who's best friends with Black Widow and the Winter Soldier and Tony Stark. So, in that example you could have Steve concede that maybe sometimes killing people is justified and Deadpool knows wtf he's doing, while Deadpool concedes that he can afford to be more careful about who he kills.

I find Londo Molari and Citizen G'Kar to be two of the more interesting tragedies in SFF. Both end up doing terrible things driven by patriotism and clan loyalty, and redemption does not come for either with a magical pat on the back that results in forgiveness for their crimes.

True Grit is another interesting story since Rooster is basically a homicidal monster who makes one connection, with one act of heroic endurance that's almost an aside to the main action.

Fringe stumbled a bit at times, but the story never lets up on the fact that Walter really fucked things up and making it right means giving up on just about everything.

Showing some actual redemption is a good start. Not just them tearing their hair and being all emo over what they've done. I think the writer needs to give the villain serious and real repercussions for their actions that they have to struggle with - and it should NOT be easy. IMO too many writers focus on the emo pain and think that's enough.

Nor should it be a case of the villain falling in love and deciding not to be an evil bastard anymore. I don't think it's impossible for love to be ONE factor in the redemption, but it's not a magical cure-all for being a villain, nor is it an adequate substitute for the villain facing the consequences of their actions.

Don't sugarcoat anything they did, don't downplay it. Let everyone, including the villain, experience the full consequences of what the villain did.

At the same time, do the villain justice. Don't make up some stupid motive. If the villain truly is crazy ass evil, give a good reason for it, and not just "well, Jeff took my woman" or "nobody showed up to my birthday party that year!" without something else being behind that. I can buy an incident being the last straw. Don't fall into the trap of thinking all villains are the same way.

Please, no two-second makeovers. The bigger the sin, the bigger the consequence, and the longer the change should be and/or the grander the gesture the villain must make. Self-sacrifices are okay, but again, it shouldn't be random and shouldn't erase the fact they did bad shit.

Definitely give the audience something. Something to look forward to, a satisfying explanation, a satisfying ending. It doesn't have to be happy or clean, but make the arc worth the audience's while.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #4020 ]

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