fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4023 ]

[ SECRET POST #4023 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4023 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 37 secrets from Secret Submission Post #576.
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He should have talked to his boss. He should have followed orders. If he hadn't, those people wouldn't have died. He isn't the one most responsible. But he is partially responsible. I'm not saying that makes him completely horrible. But he made a big mistake and he's going to have to live with that (and I hope they show him dealing with that in the next one).

I agree that it was mutinous and it was a mistake and he was arrogant. I'm not saying he's perfect, and I think the movie acknowledges that and all of that.

I'm just saying that it's not true that he caused those deaths. It's such a tenuous connection. He is not meaningfully responsible for them.

Your argument seems to be that it's not his fault because he didn't know that his choices would get all those people killed. That's... not how that works. Stop trying to take Poe's agency away. Let him be responsible for his own bad choices and the fact that all those people died because of them.

It's not just that he didn't know that his choices would get all those people killed. It's that he could not possibly have known that his choices would get all those people killed. When he was making those choices, those risks weren't even there to be considered. I don't think you can give someone moral responsibility in a situation like that.

Personally I think you can in a military situation where your job is to obey orders and he just decided he knew better. Sure, she could have told him more. But she doesn't have to. And we have already been shown earlier in the movie that he has a history of disobeying orders and doing what he wants. This time, it caused massive consequences. It could have at any time. He doesn't know why his leaders are making the choices they are. He doesn't have to.

Really? 'Cause I read her as being a mole for the First Order when I was watching the first time. There's 'obeying orders' (also, remember this is not actually a professional army) and there's 'obeying someone who by all appearances is a traitor leading you and everything you love to a pointless and inevitable death'. Add in the fact that Holdo had absolutely no reason beyond 'nyah nyah nyah I don't want to' to withhold the escape plans from her people... I would have been right behind him on that ship. He had no reason to trust her, and every reason to assume the worst.

It's not just that he didn't know that his choices would get all those people killed. It's that he could not possibly have known that his choices would get all those people killed.

Also, his choices didn't get those people killed. His choices led to a chain of situations at the end of which another person made choices that led to still other people making choices that killed all those people.

Which is to say, I agree with you, anon. I do think Poe needs to learn from his mistake, and I do think he should seriously examine the part he played in what occurred. He's a good person, imo, and a good person would absolutely feel tormented by having unwittingly helped to catalyses a disaster. However, the degree to which I think other characters ought to hold him responsible for what happened is negligible.

He knew he got demoted last time he disobeyed orders and got a bunch of people killed. His response to that was to disobey orders again. The result of that was that even more people died. How many people does Poe need to get killed by blatantly disregarding orders before you'll admit that it's maybe kinda his fault that he can't figure out that he should stop disobeying orders and getting people killed?

Frankly, the logical next step at this point would be a court-martial.

I agree that he shouldn't disobey orders.

I don't agree that those deaths were his responsibility.

So, you're saying that if Poe hadn't set up the circumstances that directly led to their deaths by disobeying orders, they'd have all died anyway? How?

directly

It wasn't directly. It was a million miles away from being directly. At least with the transports.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-01-09 04:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-01-09 05:45 (UTC) - Expand

Let him be responsible for his own bad choices and the fact that all those people died because of them.

I'd like to, but it's not like the film itself holds him accountable or seriously punishes him in any way whatsoever.

This was, tbqfh, the most annoying part of the film for me. I could have written this whole secret because I went from loving Poe to actively disliking him so hard, but the way he's earned previous fallout for similar mutinous actions, and does it again, and this time the consequences are a 1000000x worse but now he gets away with it free and clear? I have never wanted to flip a table so much. I don't think he's evil (yet) but a lot of villains have a sad story where they fell down a slippery slope paved with good intentions.

He gets away from it because, he's not responsible for it. The problem is that people think he was responsible for it, and the cognitive dissonance arising from that impression, not the fact that he gets away with it.

Obviously, that's still the movie's fault that people got that incorrect impression, but I'm also like 99% sure that's what the movie was going for.

It's not even the deaths that he should have been held responsible for but the MUTINY that indirectly led to those deaths. How is it ok to let him get away with that at all?

I think he was punished appropriately for the mutiny side of it, especially when you take into account the specific context of what happened, and the general looseness of the Rebellion/Resistance approach to military organization.

IA, The fact that Leia and Holdo have that *~winking~* moment: 'I LIKE him!' pretty much demonstrates you're supposed to go 'Oh, Poe! Boys will be boys!'

This was so ridiculous - first they do nothing with his character but use him as a prop to demonstrate how too self-assured men who fail to trust judgment of women bring about distasters, and then they go with the "I like him" thing. WTF? If you wanted us to see more positive in him and go with a lighter touch, you should have shown us more than his gigantic failures. I mean, I don't mind this being the theme, I don't even mind that much that they made Poe's character pretty awful all of a sudden, but they should have committed to it a bit more (one way or another).

The problem is that the movie was insufficiently clear about the fact that they weren't actually his gigantic failures.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-01-10 07:59 (UTC) - Expand

I think it was supposed to reference Leia's preference for that type (Han Solo), but yeah, I thought the line was kind of bizarre given the context of the situation.

Yeah, that bugged me. I mean, I like Poe but Holdo saying that just...felt wrong.

(in general I was kind of disappointed with what they did with Holdo for multiple reasons. Not least of which that I thought she was going to be around more. And I don't even have anything invested in her, I haven't read the book they put her in.)

Agreed. I really hope they show him dealing with it, too. It'll do a lot to make me like the character more, 'cause atm I'm not crazy about him.

He did try to talk to Holdo, though, and she barely tried to assure him there was even a plan, for no reason other than something something we're being so feminist for having a plot line where Poe turns out to be disrespectful to women even though that's not how his character's been built at all in the lit material. It was a mess that I refuse to let into my viewpoint of the characters involved.

I feel like it's pretty obvious she doesn't tell him because he's proved he's untrustworthy.

THIS. She's been put in an authority position for a reason. She's earned that respect. Poe otoh has lost respect from authority figures. Why the heck would she trust him with sensitive information?

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