[ SECRET POST #4029 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4029 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 30 secrets from Secret Submission Post #577.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

"Belongs to you"?

[(Anonymous)]

Tribal and religious law. Her mother's Jewish, that makes her Jewish. Nothing she can do will make her stop being Jewish. Aside from the fact that it's an ethnicity, we don't recognize conversion. We just think whoever converted is a dumbass Jew who's kidding themselves.

In other words, she could be the worst Jew ever and she'd still be a Jew, by Jewish standards. May as well try out the life.

[(Anonymous)]

That seems intensely disrespectful

[(Anonymous)]

We're not a respectful people. Israel literally means "he who fights with God".

[(Anonymous)]

What kind of respect do you think is due, in general terms, to people who disagree about religious matters?

[(Anonymous)]

In any disagreement respect pivots around the person you are disagreeing with's conduct and knowledge of the subject, both in a scholarly and practical way. For example, I'm not arguing how to be a Jew with someone who has never been one themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

So, to be clear, your willingness to respect someone's desire not to consider themselves a Jew would be conditional on their conduct and knowledge of the subject?

[(Anonymous)]

Yup. Although I have a hard time imagining what kind of argument there is to renounce Jewishness completely. I mean, can you renounce being Asian?

[(Anonymous)]

And, as long as she's ethnically Jewish, you'll think she's a dumbass unless she also practices the religion?

[(Anonymous)]

I'll think she's a dumbass if she picks up a different one. Like I thought she was a dumbass when she was a scientologist. But as she is right now being between religions as she appears to be, or non-practicing or whatever, that's not dumbassery.

And Jesus, even if she does choose to practice a different religion, why the fuck is it so important that a rando on the internet thinks she's a dumbass?

[(Anonymous)]

And Jesus, even if she does choose to practice a different religion, why the fuck is it so important that a rando on the internet thinks she's a dumbass?

So you've just made your argument null and void then?

[tabaqui]

For fuck's sake.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed.

[(Anonymous)]

She is absolutely Jewish, but whether or not she's interested in practicing the religion is still her own damn business.

[(Anonymous)]

k but we do not, like, OWN her. Like, she does not belong to anyone but her own self. This is some creepy possessiveness you've got going on here.

[greghousesgf]

the scientolgists probably thought they owned her too....

Oy....

[raspberryrain]

Do you not recognise conversion into Judaism either, then?

Lots of people are neither completely Jewish or completely Gentile. It's not that clean and simple in the real world.

Re: Oy....

[(Anonymous)]

I absolutely recognize conversion into Judaism. I would also refer to a convert as one of ours.

Re: Oy....

[(Anonymous)]

Jewish law is a binary, though. You're Jewish or you're not. You can convert in, you can't leave (just like an anon said above - you can't "stop being Asian", for example, even if you want to).
Yes, Jewish law does not follow modern identity politics. It is part of a different worldview.

[(Anonymous)]

Aside from the fact that it's an ethnicity, we don't recognize conversion. We just think whoever converted is a dumbass Jew who's kidding themselves.</>

Doesn't that make all Christians Jewish, then? I mean, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, but your comment makes it sound like all Christians are still considered Jews. Or are you just referring to a first-generation convert?

[(Anonymous)]

Although Christianity as a religion is an offshoot of Judaism, most of the people who became Christians weren't actually Jews themselves - both in the early stages of the religion, and also subsequently. So, if OP's position is that all people who are Jewish or the matrilineal descendants of Jews remain Jewish, most Christians wouldn't fall into either of those categories. Only the ones who specifically converted to Christianity from Judaism (or their matrilineal descendants).

(not commenting on AYRT's broader argument, just on the history of religion aspect)

[(Anonymous)]

gonna pull you back on your Christian history for just a minute here. The early Christians were ALL Jews. In the early stages of the religion it was a Jewish religion that still celebrated the Jewish holy days like Passover and all, just with a belief that the celebrations, like Passover, had been fulfilled (Jesus was the last sacrificial lamb at Passover, the empty chair was for the Holy Spirit, etc. Messianic Jews still do this now). When they started converting non-Jews it was a huge division in the movement between whether they should and how many of the Jewish traditions non-Jew conversions should follow. Peter with his vision on the rooftop of the unclean animals and God telling him to get the stick out of his ass and Paul's letter about meat for idols and all for instance. NOW most people who convert to Christianity aren't Jews but at its beginning it was all Jews and remained strongly Jewish until the Roman Empire took it over and started moving it away from that base because - yeah, they couldn't have the Jews getting their icky influence on things.

Not arguing the rest - just concerned about how often the Jewish base beginning of Christianity is ignored or glossed over often for vilification, 'purity' or control purposes.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that the division between Jewish Christian and Gentile Christians was an extremely important one in the early Church, but the division itself goes back to the very early days of the Church - I mean, Paul's whole thing was proselytizing to the Gentiles, and the fact that they're debating whether or not Gentile Christians need to follow Jewish custom as early as 50 or 51 shows that happening very early on. And it continues to spread widely among non-Jews, with that becoming the dominant branch of the religion long before it becomes the state religion of Rome. It really happens pretty early on.

So, while not denying that there were Jewish Christians, and while strongly agreeing that Christianity comes out of Judaism in a bunch of other ways, I think my statement is more correct.

[(Anonymous)]

wait a sec. Wasn't it just recently in the news that a Jewish woman living in Europe wanted to immigrate to Israel because of the growing antisemitism there but was told, by the country of Israel, that she wasn't Jewish because her parents had converted to Christianity? Something's not jiving here.

[(Anonymous)]

Citation pls.