[ SECRET POST #4030 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4030 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #577.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Likeability is highly subjective though, which is like as not the real issue you're running up against. You won't convince them a character is unlikable when they obviously still like him/her.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think they're aiming to convince people their fave is unlikeable so much as they're frustrated with specific arguments fans use against critics. Like when Character A is criticized for being whiny, and their fans come in and say you shouldn't criticize Character A for that because don't you know they're just behaving realistically? If you were in the same situation Character A was in, you'd be whiny too! etc etc

[(Anonymous)]

Criticism breeds argumentation, deal with it.

Or do you want everyone to accept your criticism uncritically?

[(Anonymous)]

Are you not allowed to criticize the criticism of your criticism?

[(Anonymous)]

The fuck does being allowed have to do with it?

Who's stopping you? Am I missing something?

[(Anonymous)]

Am I missing something?

Well, you thought "deal with it" made sense as a response to my comment. So I would assume yes.

[(Anonymous)]

It did.

[(Anonymous)]

Er, no. My comment was just explaining what I believed OP was arguing, and in no way suggested there was anything I needed to deal with.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Honestly, in this case wouldn't the fans have a point? If critics are lambasting a character's whininess, that is an implicit criticism of the writing and not an expression of preference (i.e. likeability). If the text is aiming for realism, wouldn't defenders be within their right to point that out? Is the character even meant to likeable, textually speaking?

Now, if one were not taking the position of critic and instead simply a fan expressing dislike for a character, then I think dismissing the realism argument is totally fair. That was my original point, since I think that's what OP is getting at.

[(Anonymous)]

True, but these arguments don't only take place in canons that are clearly aiming for realism. People who don't like "whiny" characters (aka characters who react realistically to hardship) aren't usually inclined to consume canons where every trauma is treated with the gravity it would be treated in real life. Unless you're arguing against someone who hates a specific Grey's Anatomy character for being whiny, the critics might be the ones who have a point insofar as how the canon was meant to be read.

Though I suppose this is an exercise in futility until/unless OP deigns to elaborate.

[(Anonymous)]

Even professional critics don't always agree. Professional critics have their real bread-and-butter in debate with other critics. Unanimous agreement is death to the arts-journalism field. Ever been in a room with multiple movie critics? I have. There is no universality there.

And if you had (hypothetical, almost non-existent) agreement of all critics lambasting a character's (for example) whininess, this isn't even a given for unlikability. Young Luke Skywalker was whiny as fuck at first. People love him anyway. Well, SOME people. Others don't. He was definitely meant to be likable even with his flaws, but that doesn't work on everyone.

What I'm getting at is that no one will ever like even the most-perfectly-written character, and there will always be people who love the characters others don't. That is exactly the way it should be. No two people approach a story with the same tastes and expectations. But the best characters are the ones who are the most realistic - which is to say, the ones complex enough that some will love them, some will hate them, some won't care, and it will all be based on what the reader/viewer brings to it.

[(Anonymous)]

Thiiiiiis. If I had a dollar for each time I saw this conversation take place, I could pay off my mortgage. People completely miss the point.

[(Anonymous)]

I would expect that the fans of Character A identify with Character A's whiny reaction and feel attacked by someone saying Character A is unlikable because of it.

[(Anonymous)]

Sure. So why bring up realism at all?

[(Anonymous)]

If someone thinks realism is a strong point in favor of a character, they will likely think it's something likely to win your favor toward that character as well. Honestly, it would probably work with me a lot of the time, as I do find it harder to truly dislike a character if I think their actions are what I myself might do in the same situation.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

This comment perfectly sums up everything I wanted to say in response to this secret.

[(Anonymous)]

OP didn't say anything about trying people that the characters they like aren't likeable. Sounds like it's the opposite - that other people have tried to convince OP that a character they dislike shouldn't be disliked because they're realistic.

[(Anonymous)]

The point is, OP & co shouldn't get bogged down into a battle over whether realism is enough to make a character likeable, as the way this secret is phrased seems to heavily imply. "I just don't like this character" is enough.

[(Anonymous)]

Well...sure. There are a lot of things people shouldn't get bogged down in silly arguments about, but did you forget we're on the internet?