[ SECRET POST #4030 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4030 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #577.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

01. https://i.imgur.com/sVG5qJK.png

[(Anonymous)]

Likeability is highly subjective though, which is like as not the real issue you're running up against. You won't convince them a character is unlikable when they obviously still like him/her.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think they're aiming to convince people their fave is unlikeable so much as they're frustrated with specific arguments fans use against critics. Like when Character A is criticized for being whiny, and their fans come in and say you shouldn't criticize Character A for that because don't you know they're just behaving realistically? If you were in the same situation Character A was in, you'd be whiny too! etc etc

[(Anonymous)]

Criticism breeds argumentation, deal with it.

Or do you want everyone to accept your criticism uncritically?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Honestly, in this case wouldn't the fans have a point? If critics are lambasting a character's whininess, that is an implicit criticism of the writing and not an expression of preference (i.e. likeability). If the text is aiming for realism, wouldn't defenders be within their right to point that out? Is the character even meant to likeable, textually speaking?

Now, if one were not taking the position of critic and instead simply a fan expressing dislike for a character, then I think dismissing the realism argument is totally fair. That was my original point, since I think that's what OP is getting at.

[(Anonymous)]

Thiiiiiis. If I had a dollar for each time I saw this conversation take place, I could pay off my mortgage. People completely miss the point.

[(Anonymous)]

I would expect that the fans of Character A identify with Character A's whiny reaction and feel attacked by someone saying Character A is unlikable because of it.

[(Anonymous)]

Sure. So why bring up realism at all?

[(Anonymous)]

If someone thinks realism is a strong point in favor of a character, they will likely think it's something likely to win your favor toward that character as well. Honestly, it would probably work with me a lot of the time, as I do find it harder to truly dislike a character if I think their actions are what I myself might do in the same situation.

[(Anonymous)]

OP didn't say anything about trying people that the characters they like aren't likeable. Sounds like it's the opposite - that other people have tried to convince OP that a character they dislike shouldn't be disliked because they're realistic.

[(Anonymous)]

Even if I agreed with this, your condescension is really off-putting.

[(Anonymous)]

Ha! Looks like op touched a nerve.

[(Anonymous)]

I 100% agree

The thing is, it's not even an argument on its own. You also need to establish that it matters that it's realistic - that it's important in aesthetic terms. It's really weird how common a counterargument it is. I don't understand why people just assume that realism is valuable in and of itself. It's bizarre.

[(Anonymous)]

"I don't like them, therefore they can't possibly be realistic" has a seat reserved for it right next to "I don't like the character, therefore they're badly written," which wears pink on Wednesdays with "This character shares (X) traits with me and I don't like them, therefore, the character is unrealistic, badly written AND bad representation for (x). Also the author is CLEARLY a total (X)ist and is bad and should feel bad."

NO to all of that. Sometimes I think good crits and reviews are even harder to find than good fics.

[greenvelvetcake]

I agree, OP. You know who are very realistic? Real people. You know who can be very unlikable? Real people!

[(Anonymous)]

Even this isn't a foolproof argument though. It's not weird for people to enjoy things in fiction they would absolutely avoid in real life.

[(Anonymous)]

what if I told you...that just because you and some others dislike a character it doesn't make the character 'unlikable' and myself and the people who like the character have a legit reason to like them as you have to dislike them.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, and that reason has nothing to do with realism, so stop talking about characters being realistic as though it makes them likable

[(Anonymous)]

Where is the OP claiming that, though?

[(Anonymous)]

I agree. Also, I want unrealistic characters sometimes.

[thewakokid]

I know! I don't like so many real people, and they're pretty realistic.

I'd much rather have an unrealistically awesome character than a realistically shitty one.

[(Anonymous)]

Every single person in real life is by definition realistic and yet nobody feels that they should like everyone they meet...

[(Anonymous)]

Funny thing, I had had to deal with the opposite side of the argument more often than not, that just because a character is unlikable doesn't mean they are badly written.

[(Anonymous)]

But that's 100% true though. Part of good writing is knowing how to write characters who are both realistic and unlikable. Because a lot of real people are like that. A good writer will produce some characters that are very difficult to like - and yet complex enough that some readers will like that character and others won't. Because that's how real people are.

I'm very realistic because I'm a real person, and yet I know I'm deeply unlikable to some people and very likable to others. A truly well-written character has that same quality.

[(Anonymous)]

What about the fact that different characters are likable to different people? Truly realistic characters are multi-faceted enough that some people will love them for their own personal reasons and others will hate them for their own personal reasons--kind of like how real people are. No real person is universally liked or hated, everyone on earth has people who like them and people who don't.

That's what a really well-written character is. Someone who has enough different dimensions that they ping different readers/viewers as likable or unlikable for various reasons that are as rooted in the viewer as they are in the character.