fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #549 ]

[ SECRET POST #549 ]

⌈ Secret Post #549 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[is this fandom?]

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Notes:

Going to be doing some advertising until the 15th!

livelongnmarry [LJ comm] - fandom auction type place! For a good cause.
Juxtapose Fantasy [website, art/fic] - Yaoi/slash fans - have you visited JuxtaposeFantasy yet?

Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 298 secrets from Secret Submission Post #079.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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In an ideal world where men and women were treated equally, nope.

In this world? Yeah, it kind of does matter. I'm not saying it's the most important thing in the world, but it's not completely inconsequential, either.

If you're preaching that it shouldn't matter, why push it?

Because right now, it does matter. And you seem to be implying that ignoring that is the way to fix it. Which, sorry, it isn't.

Ignore the sexist assholes. They'll eventually get bored and find something else to bitch about to get attention.

Point is: if there's no difference between the male and female characters, then it doesn't matter which is better.

I think we have pretty diametrically opposed viewpoints of how to deal with sexism. Yours is "ignore it, because it doesn't matter anyway and will just go away soon, because there actually isn't that much to begin with." Mine is "it runs deep and we can do a lot of different things to oppose it."

Probably not much use arguing more.

That and the fact the men are too fucking lazy to make their own goddamn sandwiches. No one else will do it.

But can I at least wear shoes while making them? And not be pregnant? :'(

I don't know. Let's ask our husbands!

Totally irrelevant here, but I just had to but in and laugh really hard at your icon. XD Oh man.

Neither is better. Pushing for equal representation isn't saying that one is better.

By equal you mean less male leads because "there's not enough".

Sexism works both ways.

You're kind of a dumbass and I don't think you know very much about sexism. "Sexism works both ways" is also a contestable statement and depends on whether or not you believe that sexism is pure prejudice or prejudice + power. The latter tends to be more apt.

No, I don't mean less male leads. I mean more female leads. The side effect of more female leads just happens to be less male leads. And so the fuck what?

Re: 129

vivalanaomi.livejournal.com - 2008-07-08 05:23 (UTC) - Expand

Characters in fiction are just a medium to tell a story. Their sex is not important as in the end they’re only an extension of the narrative intention. Both males and females have no real personalities, they're just used as part of a bigger message; their existence is tied to that of the plot or the atmosphere. That's what I meant, you’re complaining about ultimately meaningless literary definitions.

That's, uh, one extremely abstract way of looking at it.

But it is most definitely not the only way or the "one true correct" way.

One thing I will say: if this is true, what is "the narrative intention"? And what does the consistent valuing of males over females as human beings say about it?

Characters themselves are just an extension of the writer’s personality. Gender roles don’t play a role in the narrative unless gender roles itself is a theme in the narrative. Pixar movies, for example, have nothing to say on gender roles and hence there’s no message whatsoever about male superiority.

Narrative intention is basically the core idea behind storytelline.

THANK YOU! You explained it better than I could have.

The idea that narrative intention invalidates all other interpretation of a work is absurd. Countless theses have been written on this; I shouldn't have to repeat them here.

Some even say The Author Is Dead. I don't go that far, but I certainly think the author doesn't get to insist that just because they didn't intend for a certain aspect of the narrative to be interpreted in such a way, everyone who does see it that way is wrong wrong wrong.

If the author failed to show the reader why they think the way they do, then maybe the author just suck.

Amateur college-level theses, you mean. Serious research on narrative or storytelling are more likely to describe experimental language, structure and in general the voice used for delivery of the "message" rather than the "message" itself... which any competent author would make as clear as possible.

Derrida needs to put down the hackey-sack and get back to damn class.

Re: 129

doctor-dorothy.livejournal.com - 2008-07-08 01:15 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 129

vivalanaomi.livejournal.com - 2008-07-08 03:06 (UTC) - Expand

...are you really implying that anyone who even questions the supremacy of conscious authorial intent is an "amateur"?

My head hurts. But I guess according to you that's because my brain is too small and uneducated to comprehend the truth of your message.

You fail at literary analysis -- I should know; I teach it. A) Characters are not just an extension of the writer's personality. They certainly can be, but characters are also derived from the world we live in, and the stories we tell. If I were to write an epic, for example, chances are I would base my characters, in part, on recognizable tropes found in that genre. The extent to which I played with or altered the genre, certainly, might speak to my talent as a writer, but one can be a talented writer and work very much within generic convention. No story is created in a vacuum, and no author's personality, identity, or sense of self is created in a vaccuum either.

B) Saying that "gender roles don't play a role in the narrative unless gender roles itself is a theme in the narrative" is, well, stupid. All sorts of things come to play in a text that might not be identified as a "theme" of the text by those looking for simple things like, oh, man against man, man against nature, man against himself (recognize those "themes"? I think they are what you think literature is primarily derived of).

Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick -- sexuality and orientation can be an organizing principle in a text even when it's not the stated "theme" of the text, or a stated subject within it.

Toni Morrison -- race can be an organizing principle in a text even when it's not the stated "theme" of the text, or a stated subject within it.

A whole lot of feminist literary theorist -- sex and gender can be ...

Forget it.
tl;dr -- you don't know what you are talking about.

Writing is autobiographic by default. You’re putting your own ideas in paper, you’re writing your own beliefs. Film is specially tricky. Gender within narrative is a vastly overrated and broad and fuzzy concept.

What exactly is a gender? Is it the more or less arbitrary thread that binds the key events/emotionally intense moments of the movie together? In that case you might as well substitute it with something else (within reason).

Binding the elements of a fictional work together (characters, situations, environments) with a gender is just a mnemonic technique. Not something of vital importance. It's just an aid to focus the brain on the real important stuff in the work, and for it to be able to recall it later.

Writing is autobiographic by default. You’re putting your own ideas in paper, you’re writing your own beliefs.

Er, literature =/= manifestos. It is actually possible to write about situations and characters that have nothing in common with the author. I'm sorry if your imagination or writing skills don't work, but it's hardly true of others.

Don't you understand, fellow anon? Female leads struggle in the male leads' world!

brb being oppressed

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