Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2018-01-29 06:43 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2018-01-29 06:43 pm
[ SECRET POST #4044 ]
⌈ Secret Post #4044 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 30 secrets from Secret Submission Post #579.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 12:08 pm (UTC)(link)Most of CW's biggest shows right now are DC comic shows. When people here The Flash or Arrow, or yes, even supergirl, they're more likely to associate it with capes than "that CW show". You say Riverdale? Supernatural? The 100? Vampire Diaries? Those are shows people will associate with CW especially SPN who made a business of queerbaiting like it's nothing else and they still are today because SPN is somehow magically still on the air.
There's always gonna be a whataboutism argument. That's not the point. You're basically upset I said sky is blue but you're going "ummmm well actually it's technically azure #007FFF and by not being as technically correct as possible you're actually hurting your argument sweaty :)" condescending.
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 12:35 pm (UTC)(link)I wasn't being pedantic. I was clarifying. When I said she wasn't representative of the show, I meant the show as a whole. She has her opinions, but as an actress, they are her opinions, not the position of the show. It would be different if the show runner sa
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 01:02 pm (UTC)(link)I wasn't being pedantic. I was clarifying. When I said she wasn't representative of the show, I meant the show as a whole. She has her opinions, but as an actress, they are her opinions, not the position of the show. It would be different if the showrunner said those things, as a showrunner of a show is representative of the show as a whole. If that makes sense. And, no. That is shitty behavior, but where is the "baiting" in that? Queerbaiting is baiting the audience with things that TPTB know will be taken as fodder for fans/shippers but denying that there is anything to it. Whether it is writing specific actions or dialogues in a scene or making comments hyping it up in social media and then turning around and going "of course so-and-so is straight and always has been". Harshing someone's opinion for slashing and saying "no homo" is shitty and is often from a place of homophobia (and I don't condone it in the slightest), but it isn't queerbaiting.
Yeah, the CW's biggest shows are DC shows, but that doesn't mean they aren't associated with the network as CW shows. CW is the only one running DC shows at the moment. There's a reason Supergirl is on there. It's not like Marvel, which has shows on Fox, ABC, and Netflix at least, and which thus might be associated as Marvel shows instead of with their networks. I very much associate the DC shows with the CW, especially given their history starting with Smallville and especially given their similar style and how they fit with the CW brand. (Just compare The Gifted on Fox with SHIELD on ABC and Jessica Jones on Netflix with how disparate they are and, in contrast, how similar the DC shows are.) And honestly, if you discount the DC shows, that's like half of the CW line-up and there's not much else left to talk about. I will also associate shows like SPN and TVD with the CW, as again they are similar in a lot of respects as part of the CW brand. But they are not the only shows. However, if you had just said,"a few of the popular shows on the CW like SPN and Riverdale have major issues with queerbaiting" I would have had no issue with it. It was your insistence that all of the popular CW shows had this issue that bothered me.
No, I'm complaining that you said the sky is completely overcast when it is mostly sunny, maybe at worst partly cloudy. And I don't understand the doubling down on how SPN and Riverdale and maybe Supergirl have these issues means all the shows and the network as a whole have these issues. I'm not denying the issues exist. I'm countering the scope you've given them. And I don't get why it is a huge thing for you apparently.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 03:56 pm (UTC)(link)read the original point which was and I quote "Just because a show has queer characters doesn't mean it won't have queerbaiting."
That's not really a fair representation of this conversation. You've spent a hell of lot of time talking about how CW as a network is systematically committed to queer baiting. I mean, you literally said that "CW is basically known as the queer baiting network". That's a quote. Please don't act surprised that people are talking about whether or not CW, the network, is guilty of queerbaiting, when that's the way that you've framed this whole conversation.
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)They said that in a post long after A AYRT RT turned it into a #notallCWshows argument. They spent a lot of time talking about the CW because A AYRT RT has spent a lot of time talking about The CW. AYRT's original comment ("See every popular CW show ever") was clearly flippant, but A AYRT RT didn't know how else to argue against the core argument (that creators can still be dicks to fans of queer ships after introducing tokenistic queer characters) and so decided to interpret AYRT's comment in the most literal way possible in an attempt to make them look like an unreasonable fanbrat. A AYRT RT can't even define queerbaiting when asked what definition of queerbaiting they think they're working with, even though one of their arguments was that AYRT's specific example of queerbaiting in a CW show was invalid.
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-31 12:22 am (UTC)(link)I completely agree that "creators can still be dicks to fans of queer ships after introducing tokenistic queer characters". I acknowledged that a few times in what I said. But I didn't take the CW comment as flippantly as you did. And watching the person I was replying double down on that comment instead of saying it was supposed to be flippant made me think that I was correct in my assumption that they were serious about their statement.
And I did give my definition of queerbaiting, even though I wasn't asked for it. It was a couple of posts up. I don't feel that a comment by an actress is queerbaiting. Unfortunate, yes, queerbaiting, no. (My exact quote was "Queerbaiting is baiting the audience with things that TPTB know will be taken as fodder for fans/shippers but denying that there is anything to it. Whether it is writing specific actions or dialogues in a scene or making comments hyping it up in social media and then turning around and going "of course so-and-so is straight and always has been". Harshing someone's opinion for slashing and saying "no homo" is shitty and is often from a place of homophobia (and I don't condone it in the slightest), but it isn't queerbaiting.")
I feel like the person I was replying to was being an unreasonable fanbrat. They tarred every show with the same brush. If they had just said "Oh, I was being hyperbolic" after the first reply I would have been fine with it. Instead they doubled down on how all popular CW shows were queerbaiting and called the entire network "queer baiting network".
As an 11-year-old who wanted to be with Wonder Woman as much as she wanted to be Wonder Woman and who was really confused by this given her upbringing and the media available to her, having a Supergirl in my life would have been huge. Not only could I have wanted to be Supergirl but I could have wanted to be Alex, who got to fight the monsters and aliens but who also got to have a girlfriend. These things I was feeling would have been validated. And I was bothered that it and other shows that I also hadn't seen have these issues were lumped in with shows like SPN.
Media has a long way to go still dealing with queer issues and people. I acknowledge that. But saying that all shows are the same instead of pointing out the problematic ones or even just the problematic issues themselves isn't at all helpful in my opinion. And, yes, in my opinion, makes one look like an unreasonable fanbrat that is easy to dismiss. I don't want queer issues to be easy to dismiss as fanbrats being unreasonable. Hence my argument.
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(Anonymous) 2018-01-31 03:02 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)Please stop perpetuating the idea that every queer woman IRL gets off on playing the victem and throwing crybaby fits when they're not catered to 24/7. It's doing worse for our image than ANYTHING some bloody CW show has done or not done, Ffs.
Some of us are nice, world.... I swear.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-01-30 09:29 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2018-01-31 12:05 am (UTC)(link)I probably wouldn't have. I definitely wouldn't have if you had instead said, "Just because a show has queer characters doesn't mean it won't have queerbaiting. Look at shows like SPN and Riverdale."
The point that having a queer character isn't a cure all and there might be other issues with a show is a valid one. Saying that all shows are the same with this is not. As a lesbian, I would have loved to have had a show like Supergirl to watch growing up. Where not only could I have wanted to be Supergirl, but I could also want to be Alex, who is kick ass but who also has a girlfriend. I never got to see that, and I think it's important that people get to see that. Sure, tell an actress who makes inappropriate comments that her comments are inappropriate and hurtful and why they are so. But don't lump shows like that in with shows like SPN.
I get bothered when people stick a bunch of shows together and say "look they're all doing it wrong for all the same reasons!" because that doesn't help solve anything in my opinion. Point out what is being done wrong and what is being done right. Encourage people to do more of what is being done right and discourage what is being done wrong, and hopefully things will continue to improve.