[ SECRET POST #4066 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4066 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 26 secrets from Secret Submission Post #582.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cbrachyrhynchos]

A complex biological, social, political, and economic class reality.

[(Anonymous)]

Then how can you define real?

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Short list: Read some Plato and Kant and then fast forward to Eco.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT but

great answer

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

love this answer lol

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt, but I have in fact done that, and I still think this is a lazy answer.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to provide a philosophy 101 for anons arguing in bad faith. But I've provided a less lazy answer which is that queerness WRT gender can be defined by the tension between:

1. socially constructed violence against trans and GNC people as a class

2. the medical reality that the harms of gendered violence can't be fully mitigated by conforming to gender norms.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

If you want some Popper filtered through the radical queer. People like me are defined by two contrasting realities. Those that stay in the closet and don't get gender-affirming support experience an epidemic of mental health problems that are roughly the equivalent to a pack-a-day habit in terms of life expectancy. Those that come out of the closet experience an epidemic of discrimination and violence.

But curious that it's the trans people who are the problem and not the gendered discrimination and violence.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt but I'm not following what gendered discrimination and violence has to do with this discussion, which is specifically about criticizing those who reaffirm outdated gender roles/stereotypes in the proud name of bypassing them. In the case of gendered violence, everyone here is clear that's sexist. No conversation there. But positing that "girls like pink and wear dresses, ergo I'm genderqueer" is clearly also uplifting sexist rhetoric.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

nayrt but I'm not following what gendered discrimination and violence has to do with this discussion, which is specifically about criticizing those who reaffirm outdated gender roles/stereotypes in the proud name of bypassing them.

As we've already established, it's a myth that trans people are inherently gender stereotypical.

But we're talking about basics. The first basic fact is that presenting as visibly trans or GNC is not remotely "trendy" in most of the United States. The second basic fact is that living in the closet shortens the lives of many trans people.

Given these two facts, why would anyone chose to come out as trans just for kicks?

But positing that "girls like pink and wear dresses, ergo I'm genderqueer" is clearly also uplifting sexist rhetoric.

Straw man. Go directly to fail.

[(Anonymous)]

You are, presumably, intentionally misunderstanding the argument and dismissing it as "stereotypes" so you don't actually have to engage.

As we've already established, it's a myth that trans people are inherently gender stereotypical.

This is such a ridiculous statement, I'd love to see the peer-reviewed academic study. But the funniest part is no one is accusing trans people of being "gender stereotypical", the argument is that these arguments ARE used. And it's kind of a moot point with trans people, we're talking about "nonbinary" here. I get you're trying to equate being trans with calling yourself nonbinary/genderqueer/whatever, but I'm not even going to bite that one.

But we're talking about basics. The first basic fact is that presenting as visibly trans or GNC is not remotely "trendy" in most of the United States. The second basic fact is that living in the closet shortens the lives of many trans people. Given these two facts, why would anyone chose to come out as trans just for kicks?

Funny that you talk of straw man arguments, especially when yours is not even properly responding to the comment you replied to, lol. No one is saying trans people don't exist. No one is saying that people don't get bullied for presenting as the gender opposite their sex, and no one is saying it's permissible that it happens. On the other hand, do I think there are avenues where people WOULD appropriate this just for kicks? Abso-fucking-lutely, in Tumblr/SJW type groups and LGBT spaces (as an actual queer, I can attest). Will those identities stick long term? That remains to be seen.

But then again, that's not even what the conversation was about.

Looking at your comments, you're basically inventing a fight no one picked here for the sake of, I don't know, I suppose the sheer joy of soapboxing, without actually engaging any of the extant discussion.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

You are, presumably, intentionally misunderstanding the argument and dismissing it as "stereotypes" so you don't actually have to engage.

Because that is the straw man on the table:

1. Cis women behave according to this stereotype.
2. I don't behave according to this stereotype.
3. Therefore, I'm nonbinary.

But few trans people actually argue this, binary or nonbinary.

This is such a ridiculous statement, I'd love to see the peer-reviewed academic study.

So, trans people are not authorized to speak about our own community conversations and experiences?

But the funniest part is no one is accusing trans people of being "gender stereotypical", the argument is that these arguments ARE used.

Which matters, how exactly? You can find flat-earthers on the internet, that does not make flat-earth conspiracy theories representative of mainstream religious cosmology.

I get you're trying to equate being trans with calling yourself nonbinary/genderqueer/whatever, but I'm not even going to bite that one.

Nonbinary and genderqueer were developed as terms by transgender people within transgender communities to describe transgender people who experience significant dysphoria but do not wish to fully transition to the "opposite" gender identity for a variety of reasons.

On the other hand, do I think there are avenues where people WOULD appropriate this just for kicks? Abso-fucking-lutely, in Tumblr/SJW type groups and LGBT spaces (as an actual queer, I can attest).

How old are you? I've been out for 28 years, and people my age are not doing it for kicks. I live in the armpit of America, we just opened the second non-alcoholic, community, LGBT space in the state, and people around here are not doing it for kicks. They're doing it behind closed shades, in rented closets (I did you not), with anonymous lockers, and in expensive therapy sessions. And if cis kids feel safe to "cross-dress" and try out nonbinary identity in their college or HS bubbles, whoop de doo. Go for it kids!

Note that if you're going to use Tumblr or any other form of social media as a data point for the importance of "transtrenders" (might as well cut through the bullshit and go there), I'm going point out that every form of social media has strong biases regarding self-selection, power-law distributions favoring vocal cranks, and pressures towards conformity which makes them bullshit as generalizations of anything other than users of the platform. (No, I didn't write the book on this subject, but I studied under one of the women who did.) Sign off of Tumblr and sign into real life.

Will those identities stick long term?

Still not going anywhere after 28 years.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

I ask age because one of the people who pulled the "actually queer" card on me was a teenager who was trying to gatekeep spaces she didn't control from people she didn't understand using rhetoric she pulled off of tumblr memes.

But yes, I'm smelling bullshit, or at least a fundamental ignorance and illiteracy about real-world trans history and concerns.

[(Anonymous)]

Framing a discussion about non-binary identities around "girls like pink and wear dresses ergo I'm genderqueer" is uh

kind of a massive strawman of the concept of those identities

[(Anonymous)]

I would say ANY attempt to define what being male or female is or isn't, is a massive strawman - whether that definition is coming from some sexist religious nutbag or a liberal, genderqueer-identifying Women's Studies major with a Tumblr. Yet you see attempts at doing so from all around the political spectrum!