[ SECRET POST #4069 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4069 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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09. [SPOILERS for Stargate Origins]



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10. [WARNING for possible discussion of nazis/genocide/etc]












Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #582.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

This. Exactly.

I don't have a problem of establishing some sympathetic points to understand where a villain is coming from, but woobifying him in redemption will make me puke.

Plus, it's dishonest.

[(Anonymous)]

Dishonest? LOL

[(Anonymous)]

Dishonest in that it would ignores the evil he's done? Is this humorous somehow?

[(Anonymous)]

Yes!

[(Anonymous)]

k

[(Anonymous)]

Are you the sort of person who expects people to slap "I know this character is bad and I should feel bad for writing this" on every fic they write or woobification-flavored post they make?

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

Clearly, or they’re big, fat liars!

[(Anonymous)]

Are you the sort of person who is so invested in this character that you take it all so damn serious? Write any sort of fic you want, I'll just see it as grossly OOC if you strictly woobify the guy who has very little to redeem himself. SMH.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the person handwringing over how woobie fic is "dishonest" is taking things a lot more seriously than the people who think that it's shitty to pick on woobie fic authors.

[(Anonymous)]

Dishonest and also boring. Redemption that doesn’t take time to address the nasty shit a villain pulled, and show them doing their damndest to undo and mitigate as much of the harm they did as possible, and show how they deal with characters who don’t (and have a right not to) forgive them is boring, lazy, and dishonest. Why the fuck would I want to read about woobie characters getting easily redeemed?

Also, I could do with some reasons to sympathize with Kylo Ren. Right now, only his blink-and-you’ll-miss-it refusal to atomize Leia makes him anything but a one-note villain.

[(Anonymous)]

Look, he's already a dick with no redeeming qualities. You don't have to pretend that the Leia scene was a throwaway scene when it was awkwardly drawn out and featured in the trailers.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT—I don’t think it was a throwaway scene. But I find it frustrating that so many Kylo Ren fans are, I guess, seeing more in the films that made him sympathetic than just that one moment. His reluctance to kill Leia was the only thing in either film I didn’t loathe him for. What are his fans seeing that I’m not? I’m not mocking his fans or hating them. I just don’t get why anyone would rush to defend him. Maybe if I understood, I could get back to enjoying Star Wars, and not cringe at his every scene.

nayrt

[(Anonymous)]

Same here. I don't see much to redeem him. Hell, even Luke said he was too far gone, Luke, who got Vader to turn back from the Dark Side. Yeah, there's conflict in Kylo, sometimes he has to force himself to commit shitty deeds. And he gives in every single time, except for Leia, and he came very close to killing her, too. They claim that he killed Snoke to save Rey, but that's tainted as hell, too.

[(Anonymous)]

Kylo is a scared, insecure kid (manchild?) pretending to be Vader to make himself feel more intimidating and powerful. He was likely an angsty and depressed kid with abandonment issues after being dumped on Luke by his parents and Snoke exploited that. From his very first scene Kylo Ren's will is constantly being eroded as other people talk down to him and he questions his devotion to his cause. He kills his father to go all-in with the dark side to try to prove that he's the bad guy he wants to be, but he fails at it. He realizes almost immediately that killing Han was a bad choice and he's having a breakdown in the climax

If you seriously believe he's a one-note villain, you missed the point of that story, hard. I don't understand how people don't get this character. He's well written but he's not extremely complex.

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I have problems empathizing with that because I and a lot of people I know were depressed kids with abandonment issues who had way worse childhoods than Kylo Ren, and yet none of us grew up to be murderers or work for fascist organizations. I get that Star Wars is melodrama and everybody’s reactions are extreme, but your description of his background and motivation really does make him sound like a school shooter who threw himself into neo-Nazi ideology because it gave him an excuse to feel powerful. And I can’t sympathize or empathize with that, or its space-opera equivalent.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Those real world comparisons are tasteless on their own, but they're especially tasteless at this point in history. :/

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

It's kind of a tricky situation? It does seem fairly tasteless. But then at the same time, Kylo is a character who literally actually does murder a significant number of his fellow students at the Jedi school. That's what he canonically does. It's a tricky line to walk.

I would have chosen not to bring up the comparison myself but at the same time, it's not like this is something that AYRT has invented out of thin air either. I'm not sure how I feel about it, honestly.

[(Anonymous)]

Many characters in many canons do things that you could compare to real world atrocities. I tend to be opposed to trotting out those comparisons because I think it's vulgar and emotionally manipulative. There's no reason to exploit the pain of real people in an attempt to win an online argument about a stupid movie. It's a horrible thing to do.

[(Anonymous)]

Again, I wouldn't have chosen to bring it up myself. But that doesn't mean that it's an invalid comparison. And I do believe that the existence of resonances and resemblances like that is one of the reasons why some people have a hard time viewing the character as sympathetic, and have a hard time empathizing with him.

[(Anonymous)]

It's fine if that's your reason for disliking him, and it's pretty common to not like characters for reasons like that. There are many characters I can't like because they remind me too much of real world crap or bad things that happened to me personally. It's one thing if that's your reason for disliking a character. It's another to bring it up in an argument as a rebuttal to someone offering a reason as to why some people like the character.

[(Anonymous)]

Anon who can’t sympathize with Kylo, here—I’m sorry, I didn’t mean the comparison to belittle RL tragedies or as a jab at people who sympathize with Kylo. But just like many Kylo fans seem boggled or even angry that some people loathe him, I’m boggled and a little angry (and I know the anger is an overreaction, which is why I don’t let loose about it anywhere but FS) that so many people not only like, but identify with him.

I can feel sorry for hypothetical abandoned child Kylo that canon has so far barely hinted at, but my brain explodes when I hit the roadblock that he became a murderer, not to protect someone else, or in defense of an ideal, but in pursuit of power. I know I can’t be objective about him, or his fanclub. But I don’t send them hate, and I understand that just because they sympathize with his perceived abandonment doesn’t mean they condone real life school shootings or white nationalists.