fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #559 ]

[ SECRET POST #559 ]

⌈ Secret Post #559 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

livelongnmarry - fandom auction type place! For a good cause.

doctorwhy - A daily webcomic featuring the life and woes of our favourite (tenth regeneration) Time Lord.

fandom_of_one - An LJ comm for obscure fandoms!

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 82 secrets from Secret Submission Post #080.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I feel the need to clear up a distressingly common misconception about theistic belief: in no surviving monotheistic religion does God live in the sky.

That's because religions have evolved away from the time period that their holy books were written it, which certainly had their gods living in the sky.

Precisely. The Hebrew Bible has God coming down and beating the crap out of Dagon, but I defy you to find one Jew who thinks that Dagon exists or has ever existed.

I'm not sure if you're arguing for or against being literal.
Are you talking about ancient Hebrews or modern Jews? And are you saying that a story wasn't true, or no?

That story obviously isn't literally true (although it's quite badass). Probably few ancient Hebrews believed that it was, and certainly no modern Jews do.

Yeah...and I never thought modern Jews would. If I implied it, I'm sorry.
I think I read your second comment wrong. Heh heh, forgive me. I'm in a bit of an Avatar tizzy.

I THINK WE ALL ARE!

(deleted comment)

Oh, now we break out the 'father figure' bullshit. Lovely. I recommend Julian of Norwich, Fergus Kerr, and John Shelby Spong for an explanation of why God is not, in actual fact, a father figure (hint: it's because GOD IS NOT A HUMAN BEING).

Dagon's existence has absolutely no place in a universe that coheres to the same set of physical laws. A belief in multiple gods each of whom act independently of one another or of any third party has been untenable for thousands of years. The arrogant belief that there could not possibly be deities is equally ridiculous because it presumes that the human race is actually capable of knowing...well, anything really about the true reasons and forces behind the universe.

And 'magical sky fairy' is a horrible description. 'Magical' and 'fairy' are utter misnomers and 'sky' is just as much a misintepretation of what people actually believe as it is empirically false to anybody with access to a telescope that doesn't show a bearded man.

'sky' is just as much a misintepretation of what people actually believe as it is empirically false to anybody with access to a telescope that doesn't show a bearded man.

I think this is why I was confused before.

And what would you say were the true interpretations? Because that's what it says in the texts. Have a look. http://www.infidelguy.com/article1.html

Or the video for it --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3XSpjfyFis

This is rocky ground, but it's been theorised by Karen Armstrong among others that Biblical literalism is more of an early-modern formulation than anything else, and that in some ways it's likely that the ancients differentiated between interpretation and literal fact. This is argued against by several other historians, but in this view the Hebrew texts would have been using 'sky' as a basis for favourable association (vastness, light, freedom) in much the same way that Jesus uses 'salt' in the Sermon on the Mount. Again, there are varying opinions. I'm going to college next month and I do plan to ask my Biblical Literature professor about her opinions on these things.

The part that makes this difficult is: "Which parts are literal and which are metaphor?" In either view, you can't have absolute certainly, huh? (Not that you necessarily could, anyway.)

It's really really impossible to absolute certainty about anything Biblical. The trick is to see which parts of the Bible are coherent with one another and with other systems of knowledge. I am not in fact a Christian (in the traditional sense, anyway) but that's only because I don't try to pigeonhole everything into a Biblical context. When you try to do that you've failed before you've even started.

It's really really impossible to absolute certainty about anything Biblical.

Like...the whole book?

Re: 101

melengro.livejournal.com - 2008-07-18 02:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 101

revulo.livejournal.com - 2008-07-18 02:54 (UTC) - Expand

(deleted comment)

I am aware that modern churches are edifices built primarily on coal-fired bullshit.

'The only god' and he can't even breathe on land? These were not sophisticated times.

When you obtain the ability to see the sheer incomprehensible vastness of the universe beyond a narrow triumphalist worldview, and a working knowledge of the history and theory of science and philosophy, you'll understand why I dismiss so-called 'strong atheism' as so much hubristic self-centredness.

And when you stop relying upon anecdotal evidence of individual idiots, and read something that explains the true purpose of prayer (hint: it's not a wish list), and become familiar with the theoretical grounding behind the pronouncements of your Polkinghornes and McCabes and Mertons and Radcliffes, and actually get some grounding in religious theory beyond the useless theories of the fundamentalists and atheists enthralled to the same tiny God, maybe we can get somewhere.

(deleted comment)

I think you have an excessively narrow definition of 'evidence.' Anselm destroyed this definition (and all formulations based upon probabilities) with a logic bomb a thousand years ago. Then Kant took out Anselm's arguments until Godel was able to rebuild them mathematically.

The flying spaghetti monster was funnier when it was called the invisible pink unicorn, though not by much.

I think that assuming your senses are automatically accurate without cross-checking them against the accumulated philosophical and theoretical formulations of human civilisation is extremely hubristic, YES, actually!

Stop saying '[my] god,' it's making me nuts.

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, THE COURTIER'S REPLY IS UTTER SHIT! If you are going to argue against anything YOU SHOULD AT LEAST KNOW WHAT PRECISELY YOUR OPPONENTS ARE CLAIMING!! Otherwise you end up looking like somebody who didn't even bother to do any research at all into what precisely religious people think God is and what reasons they have for believing in Ver. PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins et al are an embarrassment to intellectuals in general and atheist intellectuals in particular. I defy them to debate somebody like Radcliffe or McCord Adams without resorting to cheap rhetorical tricks derived from Hans Christien Andersen stories. I could use a laugh.

Wow. If the topic angers you this much, perhaps you should take a few steps back before replying and come back to it after you've calmed down a bit.

If you are going to argue against anything YOU SHOULD AT LEAST KNOW WHAT PRECISELY YOUR OPPONENTS ARE CLAIMING!!

What, precisely, are you claiming? All you've basically done here so far is thrown around names and capslock!rage.

You know you can't actually *convince* someone to believe in God through logic, right?

You can't convince anyone to come over your point of view through logic, period. The only thing you can do is present it as best you can, and let them decide for themselves.

Our FATHER who art in HEAVEN.

Sky daddy, in short.

Your faith must not be very strong if you're this threatened by someone on the internet who doesn't believe in God.

Despairing and going over-the-top because of idiotic misrepresentations (on both sides of this chickenfight!)=/='weak faith.'

Cry moar, theist.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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