[ SECRET POST #4149 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4149 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 34 secrets from Secret Submission Post #594.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

soft side?

[(Anonymous)]

He was crying over Gamora

[(Anonymous)]

DA

yeah, but.....he did (spoiler) her (spoiler) a (spoiler)

[philstar22]

Yes? He's a villain. He's evil. But he cared about her. He loved her. And that is a soft side. He chose his mission over love, which is why he's still evil at the end of the movie. But loving her does mean he has a soft side.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought it was pretty clear what he really loved was the idea of her as an heir to carry on everything he built

[philstar22]

Really? We may have been watching different movies because I didn't see that at all. In fact, I didn't get the sense that he saw her as an heir in the sense of heir to his power. I never got the sense he thought of his own mortality at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe i was making too much of a throwaway line, but when he first captures her and they're in his big throne room, she says "I always hated that chair" and he says "I'd hoped you would sit on it one day." Between that and the complete difference in the way he deals with her and with Nebula (even though they ARE different women, and Nebula's actively tried to kill him more than once) I got a very strong sense that a big part of his affinity for Gamora comes from the fact that she's the most like him - effective, dangerous, and result driven. Not just the favourite child, but specifically the favoured heir.

[philstar22]

Hmmmm, maybe. I still think he thinks of her as a daughter in the typical sense too. The stone was specifically only able to be taken if someone gave up the one they loved most. I don't think that could be a selfish love. I read it as having to give up something/someone they genuinely loved. So what I got from that scene was that yes, he was a crappy, abusive father as well as a horrible person and evil, and yet he still did love her.

[(Anonymous)]

I definitely think he did, but I've also been thinking about what that means. Even bad people have people they love, but because those people ARE bad, that love becomes corrupted. Thanos being an abusive father, I fully believe he loved Gamora as much as he CAN love someone, but that doesn't mean it's a pure love and a good force to him or anyone, in fact it was probably his way of rationalizing pummelling her into shape - burnishing away her weaknesses so she could be the best (aka, just like him)

SO that being the case, "I'm hurting her BECAUSE I love her" - is that real love? For him, sure, it's definitely the best he got. But would we say it is?

[philstar22]

I'm not sure. I think his love was ultimately corrupted and abusive. But I think he could have had moments of selflessness, moments of actual love. And I kind of feel like he'd have to, to get the stone? I don't think the stone was asking for love from any point of view. I think it required genuine love.

[(Anonymous)]

Same anon (and i really liked this discussion, btw)

What we know for sure is that the soul stone demanded the death of the person you would genuinely mourn and miss. That leaves enough room for debate, which i also like!

We can see it from the other side, too - one of the most interesting and real-feeling moments in the movie to me was when Gamora killed the fake Thanos, and immediately burst into tears. Was there some real sadness or real mourning, was it the overwhelmingness of getting the biggest wish she had for most of her life, was it an expression of JUST HOW MUCH she truly hated him bubbling out in the only way it could? This was the biggest emotional expression we've seen from Gamora in all three of her movies. There is complexity here!

[(Anonymous)]

I got the impression he valued her, not so much that he loved her. Kind of like the way a crappy parent might value the abilities (or perceived abilities) of their golden child who can do no wrong (while crapping on or ignoring the others). They might consider it "love" but there isn't much empathy, understanding, kindness or respect present. But I admit I have a filthy, filthy lens.

I'm told he was much more of a dick about her death in the comics, so I guess his movie counterpart is a lot softer in that way.

[philstar22]

That's the way I used to see it. But at least the impression I got was that the stone required more. So the stone scene made me go back and reread their relationship.

[philstar22]

That and, he may be completely wrong, but at least now he has motivation. He's not evil for evil's sake. He's trying to do the right thing. He's just going about it the very, very wrong, evil way.

[(Anonymous)]

His motives were not out of evil. In fact... overpopulation and limited resources is a real issue that is causing lots of real problems in the world today.

[(Anonymous)]

As opposed to... reforming the resource distribution systems, encouraging birth control, or just wishing for double the resources, he's damn stupid, though.

[(Anonymous)]

His "half the people die impartially" bit means that vital support personnel will disappear, which means existing systems will break down, which means there will be more (painful, desperate) deaths, and there's no guarantee the survivors of *that* will learn anything about better managing population and resources.

[philstar22]

You are right. He's still a villain. He's still evil. But the fact that he has motivation and he has someone he loves makes him more complicated as a character. It adds nuance. There is a difference between a character who kills just to kill and one who kills because he believes he has to. Both are villains, but they are different types of villains.

[(Anonymous)]

Nuance, I will grant you.

[(Anonymous)]

At best it's a soul destroying stopgap. And presumptuous, condescending, life destroying, blind...

A lot of destructive, objectively evil people tell themselves stories that they're the good guys, that what they do is justified because they mean well. That doesn't make them right, or less destructive.

[(Anonymous)]

Of course, it doesn't. But in fiction, the best-written villains are those who feel justified that their actions are for the greater good.

There are many different types of villains. Compare Jason from Friday the 13th and Jigsaw from the Saw movies. Both are killers. Jason kills for the sake of killing. It's all he does. Jigsaw's victims are chosen and made to play his lethal 'games' in order to test their will to survive and prove they're worthy of the gift of life. Both are evil. One, however, acts from something more than just a desire to kill.

Another example? Compare the Joker and Magneto. See the difference?

[philstar22]

This. Or Michael Myers is an even better example because at least Jason has some history. Michael has just been a murderer since he was a kid.