fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4162 ]

[ SECRET POST #4162 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4162 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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I didn't choose to be born with genes that make me super short sighted. But people are still 100% correct to suggest that I'd make a terrible sniper. It's not discrimination against my gender. OP's reasoning isn't about her birth and expectations, it's about the fact that her gender, birth and the expectations people had of her likely meant that she's received very little training ir exposure to the skills that would make a good pirate king. I don't really see how that's sexist.

Yeah, can't imagine how the daughter of a high-ranking official could possibly learn things like leadership or strategy, or as a young woman in a sexist society have enough sheer frustration to be half-decent at piracy /sarcasm.

Not to mention there's historical precedent for well-off young women becoming infamous pirates, so it's not exactly unrealistic.

I don't understand. Did her father strike you as an effective leader and strategist? He seemed like more of a good natured bumbler to me. Even if he were, are you arguing that his daughter was educated to be governor? That doesn't seem likely. How similar is colonial politics to piracy? Likewise, you seem to suggest that being really frustrated is one of the important skills of piracy. Can you elaborate on that?

A historical precedent is fascinating, but it's not really good proof that any well born young woman therefore has the necessary skills to be a pirate king.

Chill with the condescension, maybe. I'm saying that the daughter of an official, even a bumbling one, is likely to be exposed to more education and conversation regarding leadership in general than, say, a blacksmith. While not a direct translation in skillset, many famous pirate captains came from similar backgrounds or had even less opportunity to glean know-how. And this is, of course, not including the fact that Elizabeth is shown in canon to have sought out information about pirates for most of her life.

And yes, being really fucking frustrated with the state of the world and one's place in it was in fact one of the reasons many people became pirates. Others ended up in the life out of sheer chance and decided to do their best with it--including, again, several famous pirates and of course Elizabeth. Pirates in general weren't exactly specifically trained or born to be pirates, and many of them weren't even sailors to start with. Shocking, I know.

There's no proof that a crew of skeleton men under a dire curse could have sailed so freely throughout the Caribbean Sea, either, but it seems like only a female wish-fulfillment fantasy is too unrealistic to handle in this franchise, huh?

Sure. But I think arguing that being interested in and exposed to things that kinda sorta applies to piracy means that Elizabeth was well qualified to be pirate king is extremely shaky at best.

Note: I never said Will was better equipped to be a pirate. I don't think anyone's said that, but people keep bringing it up as a straw man, I guess.

There's no proof that a crew of skeleton men under a dire curse could have sailed so freely throughout the Caribbean Sea, either, but it seems like only a female wish-fulfillment fantasy is too unrealistic to handle in this franchise, huh?

Well, no. I don't see anyone objecting to Elizabeth because she's female (though you and others are trying very hard to paint it that way) but because there's no particular reason to think she has the solid qualifications for the leadership role she takes on. The movie could have done a better job of selling that, but they didn't. And ironically, they use an actual female pirate in the background but never go into her fascinating and much more credible story.

SA, one more thing:

<>And yes, being really fucking frustrated with the state of the world and one's place in it was in fact one of the reasons many people became pirates.

Uh huh. But we weren't talking about motivation, we were talking about qualifications. By your reasoning 90% of tumblr should be literal pirates right now. Are they?

And my point is there are literally not qualifications whatsoever necessary to become a pirate. You just have to want to say "fuck it" to society enough. To become a captain, you have to be in the right place at the right time with the right stuff that the particular crew is looking for, whether that be experience or personality or apparently fulfilling a prophecy. They're pirates. There's no rules.

Cheng-Shih was a character in At World's End and was one of, if not THE, most successful and fearsome pirate captains in history. Could you tell me what skills a prostitute has that make her fit to be a pirate king?

She was a prostitute who married a successful pirate from a long line of successful pirates and historical records suggest she was an active participant, not just a passive observer. I mention this since it's been suggested that Elizabeth gains pirate leadership expertise by being exposed to people in power. Cheng-Shih had tons of firsthand, hands on experience - not of observing leaders in a drawing room or at the dinner table, but actual, real piracy. Upon her husband's death, she quickly consolidated power through her own efforts. Nobody hands her a piece of eight and bestows a leadership role upon her because they think she's a sea goddess.

Frankly, I think it's a shame she didn't have a more prominent role in the movie, because as a real historical figure AND someone who actually earned their leadership role, she'd have been a lot more interesting.

What makes you think Elizabeth was a passive observer during her time spent with pirates? From the very start, she's anything but passive. The leadership role WAS bestowed on her by chance, but she THEN stood up and made the position her own.

Training, no, but the movies actually show that she does have exposure to many of the right skills, plus the personality and talent for them. I mean, from what we see of the other Pirate Lords, what is it that Elizabeth doesn't have? She has knowledge of the code, experience with supernatural threats, the wit and personality to capitalize on her opportunities, the stubbornness to put herself forward, the selfishness to match any of them, the charisma to help inspire the pirates forward as a unit, and thanks to Jack and Sao Feng the ships to back herself up. She's even a decent fighter, or at least enough of one to survive several skirmishes. About the only piratical skill she completely lacks is the ability to sail a ship, and while that seems huge it isn't actually the end of the world. Ships have space for other skill sets than sailors (navigator, quartermaster, negotiator), and pirate captains can be elected for any number of reasons. So long as her crew backs her, she's got everything she needs.

I mean, yes, she only became Pirate King because Jack needed a patsy to break the deadlock and get all the pirates mobilised and pointed in the same direction, but that doesn't change the fact that she did just fine in that role. She looks pretty much exactly as impressive as any other Pirate Lord, and we've no real evidence that she's any less skilled than any of them. She can lie, cheat, steal, bluff, lead, fight and die with the best of them, and a highborn lady isn't any more unlikely for a leadership role than a slave or a sailor or a prostitute turned pirate.

I think you're vastly underestimating experience and fighting your way from the bottom as a qualification for leading pirates. The "qualifications" of being smart and feisty you describe only work in movies and make believe...which is kind of OP's point.

Bartholomew "Black Bart" Roberts, directly referenced in PotC and one of the most famous and successful pirates in history, didn't "fight his way from the bottom" to become captain. He happened to be a decent navigator and a charming sort of person and was elected to be captain even when he said he didn't want to be. This wasn't unusual for a pirate crew, either. Personality played a HUGE part. IDK what you're on about.

Are you suggesting Elizabeth was nominated as a leader for her personality? That's funny. :)

But, I mean, she kind of did fight her way from the bottom? She started out a pirate captive in CotBP and wound up a Pirate King, largely by dint of bluffing, bribing, tricking and occasionally physically fighting her way there. It was in a short time frame, yes, but even if you look at historical pirates some of them had careers that measured only a few years. Lack of sailing and command experience was also no barrier to historical pirates either. One of the most famous female pirates, Ching Shih, was a prostitute who basically took over her husband's fleet when he died, and did spectacularly. Charisma, personality and ability to think on your feet are all perfectly valid abilities to bring to bear on a leadership position, and Elizabeth has been showing those since she first tried to negotiate with her captor back in the first movie.

And, as well, when you talk about qualifications to lead a group of people, you have to consider the group of people themselves. The Pirate Lords were stubborn, selfish squabbling people from what looked to be a wide variety of backgrounds, and the main reason they didn't already have a King was because none of them could step back enough to let one of the others have it. Elizabeth was elected to the position at that moment in time because what they (and Jack) needed more than anything was a relative newcomer who could bust open the deadlocked system and get the pirates pointed in the right direction. Which Jack and Elizabeth did. Her qualifications for the job were that she was exactly as selfish, stubborn and opportunistic as the rest of them, she had as much appreciation for their way of life as any of them, and at the time she became king she had MORE knowledge and appreciation for the threat they were facing than many of them. She grabbed the opportunity to put her name forward, and that allowed Jack to seal the deal for her and her allies. It was a situational election, yes, and it was manipulated by Jack, but that doesn't change the fact that she genuinely was what they needed at that point in time.

She wasn't looking to become the Commodore of a Navy. She was looking to swindle and browbeat a bunch of squabbling warlords into getting their forces pointed in the right direction, and she had allies around her who were looking for the exact same thing. Allies she had earned by, variously, tricking them, saving them, condemning them to death, swindling them into it, and a variety of other piratical activities. The Pirate King is not there to captain a ship or a fleet, the Pirate King is explicitly there to break the deadlock of the Brethren Court and unite the pirates under a common flag of battle. Elizabeth, by virtue of circumstances and her own actions, had every qualification necessary for that.

Bless you.

NA

Also, isn't there a timeskip of several years between 2 and 3, where she's hanging out with Barbossa? There's your on the job training right there.

ayrt

Off topic, but since you brought it up - you can actually be a sniper if your glasses correct your vision to 20/20, I think in every branch except the marines.

OP's reasoning was less clear to me than your interpretation was. She would certainly be in a better position than most highborn women of the time to learn about pirates, and it's shown several times that some of the more experienced pirates in the films are former Naval officers and that some are women, so gender and previous association with more law-abiding society doesn't seem to be much of a barrier against becoming involved with pirates. The social barrier exists in her class, certainly, but I don't think the pirates give a fuck.

My glasses do not. :) One eye considerably worse than the other, which makes it difficult. I'm also hampered by the fact that I have rather poor hand eye coordination and zero training with guns. There may indeed be other people like me who are successful snipers, but that doesn't really qualify me given my limitations, even if a bunch of people agreed I should be a sniper.

Sorry you couldn't be a sniper, my dude, but that doesn't mean a girl in a fantasy movie about fictional magical pirates can't be a king.

But I never said she couldn't? Obviously she can, the movie exists. A lot of people seem to be taking issue with the fact that not everyone thinks she's amazing and super qualified in every way to be a pirate. Surely other people are allowed to look at that scenario and think, yeah, that'd be cool but I don't buy it.

It's (a little bit) sexist because you're importing a realistic standard about the qualities that go into making up a good pirate king into a completely fantastical setting that has no relation to those qualities, and because you're specifically doing it against female characters and not male characters when it would apply just as easily

Again, only a very little bit

If a male character had Elizabeth's background and lack of experience, he'd be equally unqualified to be pirate king. But that didn't happen in the movie, which is the reason why I don't discuss it.

To be clear, whether or not it's sexist, I would still consider it an unreasonable standard for criticism. To talk about the 'realistic' qualifications and expertise required to be a Pirate King.

The sexism issue comes up when considering whether the same realistic qualifications and expertise are being demanded for things other than Pirate King, I think.

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[ SECRET POST #4162 ]

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