fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4191 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4191 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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08. https://s33.postimg.cc/6k5m31nmn/s58.jpg

Is that how that works, though? I don't think that the most sexist writer is necessarily the one who gives the worst ending to a female character.

I mean, the whole construct of arguing over who's the "most sexist" is probably not a great approach, and both of them have definite issues with sexism at various point, but I'm not sure I agree with the argument here.

How come, OP? Donna did not deserve what happened to her and I'm still bitter about it, but all the most recent companions seem to meet bad ends.

Sure, but they at least got to have agency in their endings and make choices and say goodbyes. Clara in particular getting to tell the Doctor that he had no right to make decisions for her made me happy, especially when compared to Donna begging and crying to make her own choice and not being allowed to.

Is it sexist because she didn't have a choice? 'Cause Rory didn't have any say in what happened to him either. He just got zapped by a Weeping Angel and there wasn't any grand goodbye for him.

But he also didn't end up begging and crying, which for me is a big part of her not getting the choice. She actively did not want her memories taken away, and even understood what it would cost, and the Doctor did it against her will.

I hate Donna's ending. HATE. So much so, it was the second biggest reason I stopped watching the show.

What was sexist about it?

What was the first?

The whiplash when Ten turned to Eleven. Hated it so much.

Probably how it erases so much of her character development into a strong woman, at threat of killing her, to send her back home to become a good little housewife who pops out babies.

When did any of that happen??

She literally goes back, resumes her life, dates, and the last we see is her getting married and getting a lottery ticket to live comfortably. It's an exaggeration but I'm bitter as fuck that she got shunted into being a wife role just like every other major girl got paired off. Because no major lady is allowed to be single (and let's not forget how Jackie ended up Replacement Wife for an alternate version of her husband when his Jackie died because that's totally how it works).

I never got the sense that she became a housewife who had a bunch of babies. She just got married and Ten gave her a lottery ticket as a wedding present to ensure she would live comfortably. Being married doesn't automatically equal housewifery and babies.

I watched that season recently. They were foreshadowing the end of her arc from the Fat-baby episode - when she says something like, "And after the adventure, everything just stops and there you are, still the same."

And it went into a *lot* of detail about her emotional life, that some of her swagger came from a sense of inferiority, that this middle-aged woman with a shit job - who is first introduced in that old joke, chasing after a pretty young man - that she is someone to be respected, that she wants and deserves adventures as much as a pretty young thing with a crush on the Doctor, that she is *real*. That it's alright to be furious about her ending.

I hated the ending, and that's okay. But they did such a glorious job of writing Donna.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-26 06:30 (UTC) - Expand

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-26 09:45 (UTC) - Expand

(Anonymous) - 2018-06-26 10:17 (UTC) - Expand

Well, there is a fact that a male character completely takes away her agency, and the fact that it was written (by a man) so that a male character would have to take away her agency. There were so many other ways to write it that could have been not sexist and still in character.

Lol. That is ridiculous. But I expect that is something from Tumblr, so what can you expect?

Not only Donna. Rose and Martha's character development were pretty problematic too, especially Martha. She was such an awesome character, she didn't deserve to turn into a lovestruck whiny "uhhh the Doctor doesn't love me" generic chick.

Moffat's writing has so many issues too, but in the end I'll take his ladies over RTD's any day.

I think with RTD, it's somewhat hard to differentiate between bad writing and problematic writing. And I'm not really sure how Rose's character development is problematic either. He definitely does have issues but I'm not sure Rose really fits into that rubric - I think most of the problems with Rose is just that the Forever Love plot goes on way too fucking long.

The thing with Moffat is that the problems with his women characters are like... so inextricable from his themes and tendencies and issues as a writer generally. It's not so much about specific choices, or liking or disliking the individual characters, as it is with RTD. I really like most of Moffat's women characters, but I still find the overall pattern really frustrating. And that also makes it a lot harder to plead that it's an isolated incident, or that it's bad writing (although some of it probably is).

For Martha, she started as having a crush on the Doctor (I disagree about it making her a generic or weak character btw) then stopped. Not the other way around.

Yeah, instead she just ended up randomly incompetent when he was around.

I'm honestly just waiting for the day when there can be any kind of rational discussion about the strengths and faults of both writers (and all of the New Who Doctors and Companions) with it devolving into name-calling, finger-pointing, repetition flaunted as analysis, and opinions stated as facts. I've loved all the Doctors and companions so far and I'm just so tired of the fandom toxicity.

Same here, anon.

Agreed.

Because as we all know, being a bad writer, or just writing something a fan doesn't like, isn't a thing, it's just an extension of the writer's internalized "isms" and if they would just get rid of those, everything would be perfect.

Get real. You and I don't know shit about these people. I'm so tired of this level of discourse.

The 'isms' can cause bad writing by reducing the empathy the writer feels for the character. It isn't an either/or situation.