fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4193 ]

[ SECRET POST #4193 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4193 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What new progressive socialist party are you talking about?

The one that's ousting incumbent democrats in primaries.

But... the primaries they're running for are Democratic primaries

because they're democrats

They may be running in Democratic primaries, but they're not Democrats any more than Sanders is a Democrat or Trump is a Republican.

Uhhhhh,,, OK, I'm not even going to get into the Democratic stuff at this point - in what possible sense is Trump not a Republican? The Republican Party literally nominated him for President after he won a shitload of primaries. The vast majority of elected Republican officials support him, as do most self-identified Republicans (according to polls). What more would it take for him to be a Republican, in your eyes?

Are you kidding? Republicans hate him! They lost their shit when he started winning primaries. Elected Republicans support him now because they want to get re-elected. And I believe Trump spent much of his career donating to the Democratic party, didn't he? Not that he's a Democrat, either. But he's not a Republican. At least not in Republicans' eyes.

?????????

http://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/index.html

Trump's approval rating with Republican voters is like 90%.

They lost their shit when he started winning primaries.

Who, exactly, voted for him in those primaries?

Elected Republicans support him now because they want to get re-elected

But the reason that it would prevent their re-election if they didn't support him is because... they would lose in primaries to Republicans who did support Trump

At least not in Republicans' eyes.

I mean, there are definitely Republicans for whom this is true! But it's a very small minority by basically every objective measure. You're mistaking a specific clique of Reagan-worshipping center-right Republican grandees for the party as a whole - which, in fairness, is also a mistake that those grandees make, but that doesn't mean that it's true.

And his donations to the Democratic party?

He might have been a Democrat at one point in his life, I don't know.

I don't think that precludes him from being a Republican now. And against those past donations, there's the evidence that he is a Republican - the fact that he was nominated for President by the Republican Party, that the institutional Republican Party continues to support him, and that the Republican Party base overwhelmingly supports him. Those are pretty clear signs, IMO.

OK, well I still don't think he's a Republican. I think he's an opportunist. :)

What do you mean when you say that he's not a Republican? What makes him not a Republican? What would make him a Republican?

If you want a list, here's an article from 2016 outlining some of the ways his views diverge from the standard GOP platform:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-gop-positions-20160720-snap-htmlstory.html

I'm not a Republican or very knowledgeable about their platform in general, but it does seem to me that their voter base has undergone a seismic shift in terms of values that doesn't align with the GOP establishment. I expect the same thing to happen on the left - in fact, we are already seeing it with Sanders' popularity, with the recent primary upsets - and this is what I was getting at in my original comment about the progressive socialist "party," but it devolved into semantics, likely because I wasn't expressing myself very well.

If you want a list, here's an article from 2016 outlining some of the ways his views diverge from the standard GOP platform:

Yeah, so like, I get where you're coming from here. But I think that the actual, observable things that the Republican Party does is more important than their sort of theoretical ideological commitments. When you're in a situation where the actual Republican voters and elected officials have gotten behind Trump, you would almost have to say that the entire Republican Party has left the Republican Party behind - which is just nonsensical.

I think it makes more sense to say that Trump is a Republican based on things that have happened and the support that the Republican Party has had for him, even if he "theoretically" shouldn't be one. And, yeah, that is a change - but that's how American politics goes (and it's also a change that's been in progress for a pretty long time).

and also, both American political parties are big-tent parties, with different factions and ideological points of view. That's more what's going on with the Democrats, I think - you have the more centrist establishment mainstream Democrats and the progressive left DSA-aligned Democrats going against each other. But both are still Democrats.

I think he's both. Opportunist first, currently a Republican due to it. And the Republican party has changed to become the party of Trump.

Lots of staunch conservative former Republicans are leaving the Republican party and going Independent because the Republican party has left them behind. However, they don't deny that currently, Trumpism = Republicanism and Republicanism = Trumpism.

That's not how it used to be, but parties can change. The Republican party has done so. Trump defines it now.

SA

And trust me I'd love to have the old ones back in comparison to the current shitshow.

My hope is that centrist Republicans and Democrats can meet in the middle and somehow form a new party that is neither Trumpism nor progressive socialism. I feel as left behind by the "Democratic" party as those Republicans feel.

I don't think the Dems have left their core party line behind as far as Republicans have. They've shifted to the left some, but it's not like they've come out full throated behind Sanders using him as a litmus test like Republicans have. Some have done it here and there and seen success, but I don't get the same feeling of Democratism = Sandersism or Clintonism as I get with Republicanism = Trumpism. At least not yet.

A viable center-right party would be grand. Separate viable functional center-left and far left parties would be grand too. More viable parties at all would be great. Right now we've got far, FAR right, and a left(?) party that can't decide whether it's center, left, or socialist. And that's no good for anyone, regardless of where you are.

Right now we've got far, FAR right, and a left(?) party that can't decide whether it's center, left, or socialist.

Well, I'd say that's a accurate summary of where we are, though I think you're understating how far left the left has gone. I'm in my 40s, and I don't recall a time when the parties were as polarized as they are now, and it's all identity politics on both sides.

I stand by my assertion that Democrats aren't going to be drawing moderates or independents. No, I can't PROVE it. But I sense that moderates and independents will just be less likely to vote at all. Or they'll vote third party.

The problem is that the architecture of American politics is completely incompatible with 3rd parties.

Yup.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/182/762/55c.jpg

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/813/836/9b8.jpg

This No True Republican narrative for Trump is stupid and dangerous. The GOP pretends to be shocked and appalled by his crass behavior, like they're above it all, but they've fallen in line all his moves.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #4193 ]

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