fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #584 ]

[ SECRET POST #584 ]

⌈ Secret Post #584 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 371 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Also, I'd just like to add that those words are still being used as insults. I don't believe they're being separated from their meaning at all, as much as those who are in the habit of using them would like to believe they are.

Considering I've been on 4chan for several years now, I am one of the people 'who are in the habit of using them'. They're used as insults, yes, but you were the one referring to connotations, and the connotations on 4chan are not the same as the harmful ones you're referring to. And yes, I do believe that 4chan has more of an effect on the internet than most people know, even those who are aware of it. I'm not saying it could do it overnight, but I believe it's a step in the right direction.

They're used as insults, yes, but you were the one referring to connotations, and the connotations on 4chan are not the same as the harmful ones you're referring to.

Lots of people believe this about 4chan. I don't. I'm not interested in stopping people from using them on 4chan, just as I'm not interested in stopping the sun from rising. I just don't think their use is nearly as innocent as alot of the 4chan vets want to think, and I think it's worth noting that the connocations are definitely negative.

4chan has an affect on the internet, that's for certain. But removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult? That's just not going to happen, sorry.

The evolution of language cannot be predicted like that. Removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult has already happened multiple times through history, and we're currently in an age where the evolution of words has sped up so much that people are actually noticing it as it happens. And that's largely because of the internet. I believe 4chan has enough of an effect on internet behaviour to start things that slowly but surely become norms, and I believe language itself can evolve in multiple fascinating ways, and I believe these two things together could eventually result in these words becoming as harmless as the 'neutral insults' that have preceded them in exactly the same process. Maybe I'm naive in this belief, but at the same time, I really don't think you can say there is no possible way it could ever feasibly happen.

It could happen, but it won't right now and I don't believe that 4chan is helping things at all. I imagine we're not going to see eye to eye on that, though.

I don't think there's much point arguing over 4chan's place in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty much an omnipresent now, and as I've previously noted, a lot of the memes have spread from there to here (and many other places) already.

Whichever way we're going, and no matter what speed we're going at, we're already very much on the way.

Removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult has already happened multiple times through history

Out of curiosity, which words are you thinking of?

Bastard, bitch, bugger, as three examples. All still insults, yes, but they have lost the strength of their original connotations (in open society - the original and most demeaning connotations of 'bitch' are still used in prison and gang slang.)

In the reverse, fag and faggot used to be completely harmless, and fag is still used to refer to cigarettes in the UK. Recently there is also 'nonce', which used to be relatively harmless, meaning idiot, but now carries connotations of pedophiles/sexual offenders from prison usage (actually completely unrelated, the prison usage coming from the acronym Not On Normal Communal Exercise or Not on Normal Courtyard Exercise.) I was pulled up on this the other day, called someone a nonce and was told I was 'being way too harsh.'

Bastard and bugger, maybe. Bitch, not so much.

Really? I thought common use was 'hard/nasty woman', whereas the original connotations were more to do with dogs, being 'someone's bitch', either a sexual reference or allusions to 'doormat' or 'unquestioning minion' behaviour.

While the etymology isn't entirely clear, the "nasty woman" has as much to do with female dogs acting ugly when in heat or when protecting their pups as the possessive version does with ownership, and at least one source I have at hand suggests that "nasty woman" is the older meaning (which matches my experience of the word's literary use; it appears in that meaning in plays from the 1500s). It used to have connotations of lewdness (see also acting ugly when in heat), which it has largely lost, but those weren't connected in context to any sense of ownership.

Agreed. It's still a misogynist term, and misogyny is still a problem. OTOH, being born out of wedlock isn't as huge a deal anymore, so yes, "bastard" isn't such a curse. It's a situational change, not a definition one.

It's still a change, a loss of prejudice. And what about bugger then?

What about it? It's a sexual term - specifically, a term for a style of intercourse. I would put it in a similar category as "bastard", actually - a situational change, a relaxing of the stigma around sex, allowed for the widespread use of a word for a type of sex. Like bastard, it's not gender specific, it's not class specific, nor religion, country-of-origin, or anything like that.

Bitch, though, is used for women. Women, and men who are being put "in a woman's place". Like nigger, bitch is a term that only applies to a select minority group. And yes, you could argue that so does bastard, but the situation that existed when bastard became such a bad word (with the strict inheritance rules and all) no longer apply, whereas racial and gender inequality are still very much present.

Uh, where I'm from, bugger is usually used to refer to someone who is a mild annoyance, or used as a general curse upon dropping something/hurting yourself/etc etc. The sexual connotations are commonly unknown. Hence my use of it as an example.

Also, how are these situational changes no different to the decline of racism in modern society or the acceptance of homosexual behaviour?

Because while illegitimate children now have full rights as people, people of different races and sexual orientations are still not 100% equal.

bastard was not the only word I used as example, just the most clear cut in it's loss of connotations. You seem to be ignoring bugger completely.

Someone else addressed it and I'm waiting for you to concede the point.

And I explained my stance (and known connotations) on it, and have not had my point addressed yet (even though it was the comment you replied to.)

Your point was already addressed. The change is situational. Someone explained it upthread, I don't see the point in reiterating.

You asked how it's different from the decline of racism in society, but that presumes (in the context of this conversation) that 4chan is contributing to the decline of racism rather than helping to perpetuate it, and also assumes that racism is declining to the point where those words can shed their meaning. That's not just the case.

I only refer to the use of these words in terms of 4chan as words, not as concepts. I don't think they have any effect on those who already hold racist or anti-homosexual beliefs, and I don't believe that those who don't hold those beliefs are helping to perpetuate them by using those words in the context 4chan offers. I think that all people who try to stand up against them are doing is stopping that context from spreading, rather than the word use. Instead of the use spreading and causing the previous connotations to become obsolete, you're instead making it seem like anyone who does use these words without qualm is perpetuating the original harmful beliefs, when that is just not the case. In short, I think you're wasting your time shouting at the wrong goddamn people.

And yes, I think racism has declined to the point where those words can begin to shed their meaning, shown clearly through the beginning of reclamation of those words by the groups they reflect on. I don't think the way 4chan uses them is anywhere near spreading to 'real life', but saying that they still hold exactly the same connotations everywhere that they did 60/70 years ago is simply incorrect.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #584 ]

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