[ SECRET POST #4273 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4273 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 42 secrets from Secret Submission Post #612.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Sure, you're entitled to be completely wrong and contrary to Tolkien himself on this point. Within literary circles he's just as well known for rejecting historical-fiction reading of fantastic literature as he is for creating Lord of the Rings.

[philstar22]

Depends on what your definition of worldbuilding is. I think the OP's definition is particularly narrow, and that worldbuilding is more than just "anthropology" as you mentioned above or "historical-fiction." Worldbuilding doesn't have to make sense in a real world sense. It just means a fleshed-out world that readers (or viewers or listeners) can become entrenched in and that is basically internally consistent. Who cares if what Tolkien wrote wouldn't work in the real world? He wrote fantasy. What he did is still wordbuilding.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Well, it's my quote. And I'm pointing out flaws in how "worldbuilding" is advocated to up-and-coming fantasy writers that story is irrelevant unless you've overthought the merits of early coinage systems vs. a barter economy.

Given that Tolkien liberally retconned key facts of his story between his two published works, I don't know that you can call him "internally consistent," and that would miss the point of his body of work anyway.

[(Anonymous)]

Weren't some of those things kind of worked into the story, though (like having changes to "The Hobbit" attributed to Bilbo lying about stuff)?

[(Anonymous)]

I kinda think people are thinking "worldbuilding" means different things.

I get the impression from you, that you mean the author has to focus on creating a world to the point that everything is thought out- even the stuff most people don't care about, like the economy and tax returns. At least, that's what I'm getting from the "anthropology" references (like, they are mainly just creating a fictional society and writing stories about it like an anthropologist writes about the societies they study?)

I don't think other people (philstar and maybe others) only consider a story to have worldbuilding if the author went that far with it. LoTR has places, languages, different cultures, and "history" in the sense that events in one book affect events in books set in later times. I think that counts as "worldbuilding" to most people, even if it isn't perfect.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, and something else your comments made me think about: I think I read something that was the opposite of fantasy written as historical fiction: historical fiction written like a fantasy story where the world doesn't make much sense. The book was "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas" by John Boyne.

- the main character kept mishearing words from his own native language as English words which always had some meaning (ex. Führer as "fury"). Why would a German speaking kid mishear an unfamiliar German word as an English word.

- the kid was able to sit around outside of a concentration camp and interact with one of the prisoners for long periods of time without being caught. I thought those camps were heavily guarded?

- the kid GOT INSIDE the camp through a hole in the fence. If there was a hole in the fence and he could get in, and no one was ever watching this place, wouldn't people have used it to escape?

- the kid was like 9/10 years old and didn't know what Jews were. He had a teacher, and his older sister knew... but no one bothered to teach him. Obviously he'd have been taught a twisted, biased version (like his sister was)... but in this book, just, no one ever told him at all.

The author apparently acknowledged this and claimed it was deliberate because the story was meant to be more like a fable. Or a metaphor, or rhetoric, like a comment above said about some fantasy stories.

I'm not sure it worked for me. In a fantasy story I can ignore stuff that doesn't make sense, especially if it's the kind of story that's more of a fable. And if it's not, I can usually come up with some explanation (a wizard did it...) so it doesn't bug me. But in actual historical fiction, it just seems like someone didn't do their research.

[(Anonymous)]

It's like... it can still be worldbuilding without caring about realism and tax returns. But it would be less complete worldbuilding. If you care about the realism of the world being built, it's just follows naturally that it will be more realistic and better if you pay attention to the stodgy details like economics and governance. And this is what happens in practice, CF the GRRM quote Feo linked about Aragorn's tax policy.

[greghousesgf]

thank you! MTE

[cbrachyrhynchos]

In fact, having all of your sources agree on the nature of the world is kind of a big tip-off that you're cheating your history.

[(Anonymous)]

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