[ SECRET POST #4290 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4290 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 21 secrets from Secret Submission Post #614.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Well, Occam's Razor, I suppose

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it contradicts Occam's Razor to suggest that it's likely a combination of factors.

[(Anonymous)]

That's fair. Really, what you're looking at is the combination of the strength of evidence for the possible explanations, and weighing how they relate in explaining the phenomenon.

So if the two possible explanations we're positing for the change are (1) "the structure of internet social media encourages drama and toxicity" and (2) "individual fans have become more evil" - well, the first explanation is fundamentally plausible, because you can point to specific features of sites like Tumblr and Twitter that encourage toxic behaviors. It also does a very good job at explaining both the behaviors and the increase in their frequency - there was a point where fandom moved on to these sites, so it makes sense that the toxicity of fandom would have increased as a result of that, even if the underlying motivations and morals of the fans involved stayed the same.

On the other hand, positing individual fans becoming more evil is difficult. Why should fans, as against the rest of the population, be particularly evil? And what would have led to that amount of evil changing at some specific point? And what specific mechanisms are we pointing towards here? Unless you have some prior expectation that fans being particularly evil is particularly likely, it seems to me that it's generally a weaker explanation.

That still doesn't rule it out entirely, because most things do have multiple causes. And also, there probably are factors that have politicized and radicalized the population generally (albeit not specific to fandom). It's just not maybe the first place to look.

[(Anonymous)]

This is fairly well reasoned except for the fact that nobody in this thread has actually posited that "individual fans have become more evil". The secret refers to the "climate of fandom" (emphasis mine). I probably should've pointed that out earlier.

[(Anonymous)]

"Evil" is not a word I should have used, I think I use it in a weird way and it's probably confusing and very unclear. So strike that, and replace it with, like, "personal flaws" or "jerkiness" or maybe something more along those lines.

And I get that it's a conversation about the climate of fandom. But the question to me is, why is the climate of fandom that way? And if the climate of fandom has changed, why has it changed? And trying to weigh the difficult possible explanations - for instance whether it's structure of social media, or whether it's the jerkiness of people in fandom, or whether it's larger societal changes that happen to effect people in fandom. And how much emphasis we put on those things. And for a lot of reasons, I think the simple answer of "fandom is bad because fans are jerks" isn't a great one.

(I mean, some fans definitely are jerks, but I tend to assume that people are jerks at fairly consistent rates.)

[(Anonymous)]

Like I said, I think it's a combination of things with no one simple answer. Changing social media platforms that allow very quick spread of information, (i.e. it's super easy to forward things without giving them a thorough read through or much thought) a fading in popularity of attitudes like YKINMK, a spotlight on social issues in mainstream culture that makes call out culture more widely acceptable - and frequently misused, an increase in torch and pitchfork attitudes where people can win internet points by tearing others apart for even small errors, etc. etc. etc.

Do I think people in general have gotten worse? Not in essentials. But I think it's easier for people to be very vocal about what are occasionally awful, jerky opinions and that can lead to a feeling of camaraderie and safety for other jerks to also be very vocal about their equally awful opinions. So overall, I can easily see how that has the potential to change fandom culture.

[(Anonymous)]

Every attempt to cite Occam's Razor I have seen in a fandom context makes me repeat to myself "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Almost never seen it referenced correctly and that includes your comment.

[(Anonymous)]

We have two theories attempting to explain a given phenomenon. The first posits one reason for the phenomenon (an observed change in the structure of Internet communities). The second posits two reasons for the phenomenon (the change in the structure of Internet communities, and an extrinsic change in people in fandom being more dickish). Therefore, Occam's Razor argues that the first explanation is more likely to be correct.