fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4293 ]

[ SECRET POST #4293 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4293 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05. [SPOILERS for Castle Rock]

__________________________________________________

06. [SPOILERS for Deadpool 2]

__________________________________________________

07. [WARNING for discussion of rape/assault]

[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #614.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

07. [WARNING for discussion of rape/assault]
https://i.imgur.com/va0AMcc.png
[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]

Stop.

hammertime

Collaborate.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 00:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 01:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-07 01:50 (UTC) - Expand

I think the look on his face and stopping was the result of him realizing what he was doing - not realizing that Buffy's "no" actually meant no.

I see what you're saying, OP. But I do think he felt entitled to her. He was abusive to all of his girlfriends, and I don't think that scene is as complicated as you're maybe trying to make it seem

.. and it can't be "what the hell am I doing, she's saying 'no' ?"

(no subject)

supermanda - 2018-10-05 22:18 (UTC) - Expand

Okay, how was he abusive to Dru? He literally doted on her and obeyed her every whim.

(no subject)

supermanda - 2018-10-05 23:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-05 23:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

supermanda - 2018-10-05 23:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 12:46 (UTC) - Expand

I agree, OP.

His actions afterward --fleeing halfway around the world, undergoing the trials, being understanding about terms after he came back -- don't mean jack to most people, I guess. Just that he made the attempt.

(And no question, it was a shitty shitty thing to try to do -- to try to *make* her love him -- but their situation and relationship wasn't black and white.)

Wow, no.

I was actually watching this when it aired and it was clearly attempted rape. I loved Spike as a villain and this just made me hate him.

Buffy was clearly in a really bad place and he took advantage of that. He's no better than all the Nice Guys(TM) I met in fandom when I was a teenager.

Maybe any other day, I would actually be interested in discussing this.

Not today, Satan. Not today. Instead I'm going to go read about the Nobel prize winners and try not to tweet angrily at US Senators.

I have made several angry phone calls, but the bastards are not picking up, so they are getting angry messages.

Fuckers.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent and always have. That and Buffy was pretty much always as strong if not stronger than Spike, and he didn't *expect* to overpower her or anything. (Piss-poor writing, if you ask me.)

Agreed that it was piss-poor writing, but according to what some of the writers had said, it was a contentious decision even in the writing room, and the reasons for it were not "in-universe" so much as they were a ham-handed attempt to "correct" where the audience's sympathies were. And that was necessary because of many incidences of piss-poor writing in S6, where this misread the audience reaction to their characters.

(no subject)

tabaqui - 2018-10-06 01:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 04:08 (UTC) - Expand

Ew, no.
Buffy/Spike's relationship has always been gross to me - and the apologist attitude of their fans, or their ship fans to that scene (and Spikes 'redemption' afterwards) has disturbed me.
I get your point, their relationship was screwed up from the get-go, and Buffy 'could have fought back', but no. The writers chose a gross way to present this, and deal with it later.
Nope.

Op did not say that Buffy "could have fought back," though? OP said that they were in a kinky relationship where no didn't always mean no. Not at all the same thing.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 11:08 (UTC) - Expand

Spike's redemption afterward disturbs you??? (Or am I reading your comment wrong?)

IMO, someone changing for the better is always a good thing.

This is exactly how I see it, always saw it.

I agree and I also think their 'relationship' as it were, brought out the worst in each other which was built on top of the fact that they were both in fucked up places in their lives.

This. They were a terrible couple. I don't at all ship. But she was using him as much as he was using her. They were both terrible in that relationship. Loving her eventually brought out good in Spike. But actually being involved with her did not do good for either of them.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-05 23:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-06 02:26 (UTC) - Expand

I just think it was a bad writing choice. You have all this character development to the point that we understand he's capable of genuinely caring for people, even people who aren't Buffy - because she was dead and he didn't think she was coming back, and he still stuck around to protect Dawn and the others - and then what? Suddenly not having a soul is an issue again? After it's been proven not to be?

They wanted her alone (big theme for s7) and they needed someone to be the big redemption sacrifice for the final episode. This was just a lazy way to achieve that.

As someone who does respect his redemption plot and loves Spike as a character, I disagree. Their relationship was obviously fucked up in all ways, but his actions don't indicate "he thought she was consenting" and didn't think no meant no. He was doing the same "make her love me/make this the way it was" thing he did with Dru, and then realized that what he'd done was too fucked up. He even said after, when he'd gotten his soul, that he had to be "the kind of man who would never [try to rape her]".

Shockingly, it's possible to think a character did something 100% terrible and also still like the character/story. Villains don't need excuses.

(no subject)

osidiano - 2018-10-16 08:13 (UTC) - Expand

The writing by that point was so awful, it was really hard to sympathise with any characters at all in the show, they'd just become these walking metaphors for whatever message the writers room were arguing over. (I remember one of the Fury episodes literally being like 'LET US DISCUSS QUASIMODO, WITH REFERENCE TO SPIKE. AM I BEING TOO SUBTLE? NEVER.')

But I do think that for a world in which some women have this physical power over others (Buffy with her strength, Willow with magic) it plays out as very...same as.
Like, Willow essentially rapes Tara, but it seems to be handwaved, which kind of comes across as this unfortunate implication that rape's only rape when it's clearcut PIV tears-and-fighting.
Faith rapes Riley and tries to force Xander, and it's never really commented on. Buffy throughout season 6 blows Spike after he's asked her to leave, and it gets this comedic WHAAAAP WHAAAP sound effect and one-liner joke.
So when they're then trying for this Lifetime movie (Buffy's injured from a really bad fight! Grey robe of sadness!), it kind of comes across as left-field from their attitude to consent the entire show's run.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2018-10-07 04:48 (UTC) - Expand

That was my thoughts too when I watched it.

2002 called; it wants its rape apology back.

/fucking Spike fans, hate 'em now; hated 'em then.

Wow a lot of people took away a really different message from this episode than I did. I think it's important to remember that it came out in 2002, which was less than a decade after the last States repealed their spousal rape exemption laws (Oklahoma and NC, I think, in 1993). They weren't married, but they did have a consensual (if super unhealthy) sexual relationship prior to this event, and for a lot of people, that meant they wouldn't view it as rape. So the show had him do this, and then said "HEY THIS WAS DEFINITELY AN ATTEMPTED RAPE" and treated it like a big deal (which not all shows or courts would do, since it was "only" attempted). Also, they had Spike, who literally didn't have a soul and didn't balk at torture, go "Holy shit that was terrible and I don't want to be that guy," which is even now a depressingly low bar that men struggle to reach. If a soulless monster can figure out that rape is bad and he shouldn't do it, then the male viewers in the audience can also pick up on that super unsubtle bit of messaging.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only