fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #593 ]

[ SECRET POST #593 ]

⌈ Secret Post #593 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 215 secrets from Secret Submission Post #085.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

it was the imperialists and fighting force who came in and "conquered".

And where did they learn the values that took them there? Church.

The Vikings did the same thing. So did the Celts...or can you only look at 1900 years of history at once?

I have never once said that other groups and cultures have not committed atrocities or waged wars. I was talking about the last 2000 years and Christianity because those were the last 2000 years, and those were the 2000 years relevant to the secret.

I'm sorry that's hard for people to follow.

And where did they learn the values that took them there? Church.

No, sweetie. Kings. Monarchies. Power-hungry elite castes. The concept of empire...all of which predate Christianity.

I mentioned the Romans, the Celts, the Vikings, and the Egyptians to demonstrate that the things you are blaming Christianity for existed long before the birth of Christ.

And they have existed in the last 2000 years. Witness the atrocities committed under Communism, in which Christianity was forbidden. The executions, the abuses. And Communism is not all bad either!

My point is that you're scapegoating Christianity, and that's bigotry. What you should blame is human nature and the tendency for the wolves to control and prey on the sheep, no matter what creed they all subscribe to. It's the same patterns repeated over and over, whether Christianity is part of the picture or not.

And Christianity is largely what has kept those things in power for the last 2000 years in question. That's all I'm saying.

And you haven't produced one shred of evidence to back up your claims, which isn't surprising.

You also didn't address my point about Communism. Or others' points about Islam. Atrocities have been committed by people subscribing to just about every religion and philosophy in the laast 2000 years...not just Christianity. That doesn't mean that all atrocities everywhere will stop if you outlaw the faith or creed those people claim to belong to. Suppression of information for people's own good hasn't worked yet.

I addressed them. I said I did not deny that evil had been committed by others, but an examination of world history supports the claim that over the last 2000 years, Christianity has been the worst as a single entity or influence.

I didn't say it should be outlawed or suppressed. I do believe it should be challenged, which was the point of the secret.

Christians get very sensitive about these things considering their folk have been the ones in power all this time. Go back a few hundred years and I could be burned for saying any of this.

Go back a few hundred years and I could be burned for saying any of this.

Go back a few more hundred years and I could be fed to lions by admitting I'm Christian.

Bottom line, it's not the religion that's at fault. It's the corrupted people who use it as a shield and sword.

I'm sorry, I've just had an epiphany. I'm a gibbering lunatic and I don't know wtf I've been talking about. Thank you for showing me the light!

Go back a few more hundred years and I could be fed to lions by admitting I'm Christian.

Christianity eventually held a position of power. I'm pretty sure it's that period of history the OP is talking about, whether or not you agree with him/her. The fact that the Christian Church didn't always have power doesn't take away the power it eventually got.

but an examination of world history supports the claim that over the last 2000 years, Christianity has been the worst as a single entity or influence

And you have yet to cite one. single. shred. of evidence to support this. You just keep making sweeping generalizations. Calling something "the worst" (at what, exactly?) doesn't make it anything of the sort.

Christians get very sensitive about these things considering their folk have been the ones in power all this time.

"Their folk"? Interesting how you see Christians as one solid entity. Those Christians, they all look alike to you, don't they? (Sorry - low blow, but a lot of what you are saying is ridiculous.)

Christianity has always been a religion of the poor and downtrodden. As another anon pointed out, it wasn't until Constantine that anyone who wielded politcal power embraced it.

Go back a few hundred years and I could be burned for saying any of this.

Go back a few hundred years and at least one country was founded on the principle of religious freedom. The Salem Witch Trials were in 1692.

Go back a few hundred years and at least one country was founded on the principle of religious freedom. The Salem Witch Trials were in 1692.

If you look at the Constitution, then yeah. But when the Puritans and Pilgrims came to America, they weren't the most accepting of religious beliefs differing from their own, even other Christian sects. There was corruption abounds as far as who could get into governmental positions, and groups like the Quakers and the Catholics (as well as anyone who didn't automatically agree with everything the church did in his/her community) were still persecuted. Pennsylvania and Rhode Island were both formed to provide safe havens against religious persecution in other states.

So while I'm not sure the OP would be burned necessarily (unless it were during the trials), s/he would definitely be banished for heresy. The US was all for freedom of religion as long as you liked the religion they were preaching.

If you look at the Constitution, then yeah. But when the Puritans and Pilgrims came to America, they weren't the most accepting of religious beliefs differing from their own, even other Christian sects.

This is what I was saying. 1692 was in the Puritan era, and was more than a few hundred years ago.

The US was founded a few hundred years ago, and the Constitution outlines the principles the Founding Fathers agreed on.

So my point stands: a few hundred years ago, after the American Revolution, there's no way the OP would have been either banished for heresy or burned. You have to go farther back, to Puritan times, for that.

Didn't the Puritan era span beyond 1692? Either way, I counted ~300 years as being "a few hundred," and this is technically incorrect.

So my point stands: a few hundred years ago, after the American Revolution, there's no way the OP would have been either banished for heresy or burned. You have to go farther back, to Puritan times, for that.

There's no way the OP would have been either banished for heresy or burned in America. I still don't believe the OP's statement is completely unfounded, especially since we're arguing on a technicality of years involving only one country. I also don't believe religious persecution ended with the American Revolution or signing of the Constitution, but that's another matter altogether.

I honestly don't know when the collective countries of the world stopped actually banishing people, but given that people have been banished/killed throughout history for religious beliefs I don't think his/her statement can be proven false.

Go back a few hundred years and at least one country was founded on the principle of religious freedom. The Salem Witch Trials were in 1692.

This was the line of my previous post, and yes, I was referring to the USA specifically.

"A few hundred" would be up to 300 years, but this is farther back than that. I think we're splitting hairs here and arguing the same point from opposite directions. I'm sorry my statement referring to America specifically wasn't clear as such.

And the US has never had a state religion. We specialize in spin-offs. See: Shakers, Quakers, Mormons, Spiritualists, etc. etc. etc.

This was the line of my previous post, and yes, I was referring to the USA specifically.

I knew you were talking about America and didn't mean to indicate that you weren't (that is my fault for poor wording). My point was that the OP wasn't, so the fact that s/he wouldn't be banished in America doesn't mean other countries would act the same around that time period.

However, I realize that I did argue the "well s/he could still be banished in America" bit at first, and I retract this if we're not including Puritan times and a little afterward. (As a side note, I am very curious to know when people stopped being banished now.)

I think we're splitting hairs here and arguing the same point from opposite directions.

I agree. ><

True, the US didn't have a state religion. America certainly doesn't come to mind when I think of the most religiously oppressed nations, even including Puritan times.

Depends how many "a few" is, and you're assuming they're American not European.

I'm not assuming anything; my sentence was referring to America in response to the OP's citation of the Salem Witch Trials, which happened in America.

Someone needs to seriously take some history classes.

A) For a GOOD three-hundred to four-hundred years the Christian church, aside from being UTTERLY fragmented and ranging in an insane amount of different beliefs within the church itself, was an underground movement thanks to Roman attitudes towards religion which would have not been as great if Christians had accepted emperor worship. Due to their refusal and lack of any ancestral ties to an older religion (they were a break away sect of Judaism and while Judaism was Old and Established, Christianity wasn't) they were stigmatized and subject to infrequent persecution. Time frame. Get it right.

B) YES some seriously horrid things due to Christianity have occured. The Crusades are a good example. However, if you actually sit down and study them, a HUGE driving factor beyond religion was the desire to gain land and wealth in the Holy Land. Inquisition and such, yes, that too.

C) If you're going to point fingers at Christianity, what about the other religions? Surely Christianity isn't the ONLY fucking religion on the planet responsible for ills! RELIGION IS NOT THE PROBLEM. PEOPLE ARE. IT IS A MATTER OF HOW PEOPLE INTERPRET AND UNDERSTAND RELIGION THAT LEADS TO PROBLEMS. YOU CANNOT BLAME A FAITH OR THE COLLECTIVE WHOLE OF ADHERENTS FOR THE MISTAKES OF A FEW.

Other comments have already covered these issues, but points for the icon!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #593 ]

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