Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-09-19 05:13 pm
[ SECRET POST #623 ]
⌈ Secret Post #623 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[countries from the game Pandemic II]
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Notes:
1. Check out
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif){kind=small}
ljconfesses if you haven't!2. CITY STUFF → [ pop ]
3. Also, for anyone who needs people to click links for games, this site is really helpful: http://swle.yarold.eu/?id=3809
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #089.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 6 - trolls ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 07:20 am (UTC)(link)And unlike Kanda and Ravi, Lenalee was so injured by her fight against the level 3 akuma that she was barely able to walk without assistance. When it came time to face the level 4 akuma, both of them had no mobility or physical issues facing them aside from having no Innocence, which Lenalee had on TOP of being injured.
And no, I don't expect female fans to like or dislike female characters based on factors like their sex. I don't expect anyone to do the same with any character of any trait. But my problem here isn't with canon. It's with fan attitudes towards canon that may or may not reflect deeply ingrained sexist attitudes.
And yes, I find a big, big problem with female characters being held to different standards than male characters, because frankly, I wouldn't hold an African American character or a Jewish character to a different standard than a Caucasian character. With that logic, the traits that they have--being female, for example--are the reason that they're being singled out in the first place, when those traits should be irrelevant to things like fighting skill and development. Why should they be relevant? Why should Lenalee be held to a different standard than, say, Allen, all factors other than their sex aside?
I'd be more likely to agree with you assessment about Hoshino possibly having sexist attitudes that spill over into her work, but I just don't think, looking at her other female characters and her portrayal of Lenalee, that that's the case. It is with plenty of authors, and I'm more than willing to call sexism on them when I see it. But I'm not seeing it in D.Gray-man canon. Which is why I'm more likely to point fingers at fans, because the material they're interpreting doesn't, in my opinion, reflect any sort of attitude of the author's about women in Lenalee's case.
She's a distinct character who's had different development and experiences than other characters, and I don't feel like Hoshino has made the fact that she's female any sort of issue or stepping stone with her. She's just an exorcist with her own set of problems who happens to be female, so I don't think that she should be judged on a different scale with a similar exorcist who happens to be male purely on the basis of their sexes.
Furthermore, here's another link that you might be interested in: http://nagaina-ryuuoh.livejournal.com/291992.html#cutid1
Re: 123
I'm talking about passive in a meta sense, here; even though she actively tries to make her innocence work, nothing comes out of it. It's not until after being completely unable to do anything during a crisis and made a prize to be saved (their princess? Good grief) she is allowed to regain it.
You'll notice that the male characters are simply not put in a position like that; even when they haven't got their innocence, they're still able to fight, or they're simply off somewhere recuperating.
I don't call that 'taking a passive role.'
No, that's being forced into a passive role by canon. She wanted to do things but was rendered completely unable to.
When it came time to face the level 4 akuma, both of them had no mobility or physical issues facing them aside from having no Innocence, which Lenalee had on TOP of being injured.
This is actually exactly my point; why is this the case? Why is it that male characters are not placed in a completely helpless situaion while female characters are? These are the hidden ways a sexist society works; we do things unthinkingly and unintentionally, reinforcing stereotypes while (probably) not wanting to.
And yes, I find a big, big problem with female characters being held to different standards than male characters
Well, who doesn't? But you cannot be sure that people are actually doing this unless you can read their minds (except in the very few cases where it's obvious), since female characters are usually held to different standards by canon; what if the dislike people feel is the result of the unequal roles men and women are dealt in a particular canon?
about Hoshino possibly having sexist attitudes
Oh, I don't think she does, not more than people in general. I just think she unconsciously influenced by living in a sexist society, making that spill over into her work occasionally. Very few works of fiction (if any) escape the traces of sexism completely.
I don't think that she should be judged on a different scale with a similar exorcist who happens to be male purely on the basis of their sexes.
This is also a point I'm trying to make. I am comparing her to the way male characters are treated in canon, and I'm finding discrepancies. This is a problem I think should be discussed.
Thank you for the link (and the one before!)
Well, I certainly agree that Linali's not a Mary Sue. I think the author there is wrong about the state of her innocence being comparable to Kanda's and Krory's, but it was similar to Allen's, and that means she's not breaking the rules of the canon world, and thus not a Sue. Especially now when it's been theorised that all equip types of innocence could evolve the same way.
From what I can discern, the people calling her a Sue seem to have mistaken hints of sexism (Breasts suddenly appearing bigger? Revealing clothing? Suddenly put in a helpless position unable to do anything but wait for someone to save her? Yeah.) for Sue traits, and simply reacted to that.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 03:04 pm (UTC)(link)The way I see it, Hoshino may be influenced by the sexist views in society, or she may not be. There may be some subconscious ideas about women at work that led her to unwittingly put Lenalee in positions that the male characters would not be put in. Of course, I don't think either of us will ever know for sure. She might have chosen to write Lenalee, Allen, or any other characters into certain situations like that for reasons that we as readers can't really interpret. But it is something to think about.
And no, I'm no mind-reader. I've been drawing on my own personal experiences with fans who dislike Lenalee, and some of them have admitted that the problems they have with her lie in her portrayal as a female character. I can understand that to an extent, even though I myself don't take issue with the portrayal of female characters in D.Gray-man.
Yet still, some other fans were not able to provide a legitimate reason for disliking her or holding her to a different standard. I guess it's cynical of me to automatically assume that many fans who dislike her will be more inclined towards the last option. Or is it? I've found in some fandoms that quite a few fans simply don't take time to think about gender theory or how they're wrongfully interpreting characters based on traits that are beyond the character's control. And they should, because everyone should.
Re: 123
Yeah, I mean, I think the female characters in DGM (and FMA for that matter) are all very good characters, really. The problems with them are just very, very subtle, and can create antipathy in people not prone to analysis. As you said, some people just don't think much about gender theory.
I just think that in general it's better to try and get a discussion going about why someone dislike her, and pick apart their reasoning until they ses the real problem. Or, alternatively, that there isn't much of a problem. Accusations will only make them more stubborn in their wilful dislike, I think.
She might have chosen to write Lenalee, Allen, or any other characters into certain situations like that for reasons that we as readers can't really interpret.
Imagine a world where, for example, The Millennium Earl, Cross and Sokaro would have been female, Miranda male, there being as many female as male exorcists without it changing a single thing in their personalities or the story. Seems impossible, doesn't it? That's how far we are from being free of sexist reasoning.
Re: 123
(Anonymous) 2008-09-21 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)Sadly, that's true. In the meantime, though, Leverrier can keep his biological sex. Haha.
Re: 123