[ SECRET POST #4500 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4500 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.



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02.


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03.
[Neil Gaiman's Good Omens and American Gods]


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04.
[Exist Archive: The Other Side of the Sky]


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05.
[Letterkenny]


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06.
[The Umbrella Academy]


















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #644.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. https://i.imgur.com/F5mVWF3.png
[The Umbrella Academy]

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for pointing this out, OP

[(Anonymous)]

I'd still dislike Luther even if he wasn't a white guy. I don't hate him though and I hope he grows in the second season.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with the basic argument that a big chunk of fandom tends to be very ready to hate white, straight male characters - essentially for being imperfect while white, straight, and male.

That said, I am someone who has a disproportionately large percentage of white, straight male faves - many of whom are characters that it is very popular to hate on. And I still strongly dislike Luther.

I don't think he's irredeemable (whatever that even means), but he's unlikely to be a character I ever fully warm to. And that's because I find him controlling and self-righteous and...paternalistic, basically. And it's an entirely logical bit of characterization for him to be the sibling that most clearly mirrors behaviors he learned from his "father." But I just have no patience for "I know best; I make the decisions for everyone and I'll enforce them if I need to" type characters.

I might have a little bit more patience for him if he were gay or female, because at least then his domineering attitude would be a bit of a subversion of standard character tropes. But even then I think his bullshit would get old really fast.

[(Anonymous)]

Where are we actually getting the idea that fandom disportionately hates straight white male characters? That seems bizarrely unfounded to me, especially given the legions of straight white male fandom faves. And fandom certainly has women characters it hates, at least.

Also, I think Umbrella Academy is a show where everyone is terrible, and which characters you're willing to forgive for it is just a reflection of taste to a certain extent, but even more than that, a reflection of one's own personal issues. Including myself here.

[(Anonymous)]

Where are we actually getting the idea that fandom disportionately hates straight white male characters? That seems bizarrely unfounded to me, especially given the legions of straight white male fandom faves.

I think just existing in fandom makes it pretty clear than fandom disproportionately both loves and hates straight white male characters. I would say the disproportionate love is probably more ubiquitous than the disproportionate hate, but one very much does not preclude the other.

which characters you're willing to forgive for it is just a reflection of taste to a certain extent, but even more than that, a reflection of one's own personal issues.

I largely agree with this.

However, I think the fact that a domineering character is white and male definitely does make it more likely that they will rub some people the wrong way, specifically because it plays directly into (completely valid) issues people already have about white privilege, male privilege, and how that privilege tends to shape the way men and white people conduct themselves in society.

[(Anonymous)]

+1

[(Anonymous)]

I'm curious... did you feel the same way about Alison and her checking up on Vanya and Vanya's love interest? She wasn't wrong about the guy (whose name I cannot remember right now) but it kind of rubbed me the wrong way at the time. It was maternalistic in the way that Luther is paternalistic. She and Vanya didn't have that kind of relationship where she could interfere and I agreed with Vanya that it did seem kind of... well, irritating, given the failure of Alison's own marriage.

[(Anonymous)]

It bothered me a little bit, but it also bothered me that Vanya was being willfully blind about him. So I was pretty torn.

Mainly, I think what Alison was doing wasn't the same, at that point, because she wasn't actually forcing her own will onto Vanya. She was being nosy and a little insensitive maybe, but that's about it.

But then later she definitely DID try to force her own will onto Vanya, in the worst possible way, and that was tremendously fucked up. And yeah you're right; the scene where she tries to use her powers against Vanya, "for her own good," is very controlling in an "I know best" way.

I suppose part of what makes me forgive Alison a little more, even though what she does is so horrible, is that she knows her power is wrong and is trying really hard not to use it. And when she does fuck up (big time) and try to use it on Vanya, she does it in a moment of near-panic, where she doesn't really have time to think things through. And then she seems to recognize that she fucked up almost immediately afterwards, and feel remorse. None of which is true for Luther when he makes controlling decisions that affect all of them.

Also, Luther enforces his decisions on everyone. There's no democracy, no equality in it. It doesn't seem to matter how many of them disagree with him; he's right and they're wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

I do think a lot of that plays a factor.

But I don't think it's as simple as just swap his race and he'd be actually liked even if there's less bashing?

Because Klaus. Klaus is right there, being a fandom darling who has his actions and choices excused. Or any fandom where the most beloved woobies are white male characters, even if they're straight in canon unlike Klaus. It's the competing tropes.

[(Anonymous)]

Klaus is also a Sad Gay Boi, which anyone will tell you forgives everything. Luthor is trying to be The Tough Leader Man, while Klaus just wants to get high and not hear dead people all the time. Big difference.

[(Anonymous)]

But that seems to agree with AYRT's argument that it's about tropes and character types, rather than OP's argument that fandom is prejudiced against straight white males

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Like above anon said, that's what I'm saying?

And if Klaus was just Sad BoI, I think he'd still be hugely popular. Fandom would just write him as Sad Gay Boi.

[(Anonymous)]

White male characters aren’t disproportionately hated by fandom. This sure is a take.

[(Anonymous)]

A character doesn't have to be hated by more than 50% of fans to be disproportionately hated. A character being disproportionately hated just means proportionately more people hate them than hate other characters with similar qualities/credentials.

There are a lot of elements that complicate this issue. For instance, what counts as fandom? If we're talking about the heavily female dominant fandom of fanfiction and tumblr and such, then I would say white, straight male characters often do get proportionally more hate than, say, WoCs (WSM characters also get more love, but those two things are not mutually exclusive). But OTOH, I suspect that in more male dominated fandom spaces, that is very much not the case.

Then there's also the issue of fandom popularity. Stories staring white, straight male leads are often the most popular; therefore they have a larger audience; therefore a smaller percentage of that audience still ends up equaling a bigger number of people who hate the white, straight, male lead. In such cases, the white, straight male lead isn't disproportionately hated, but for people who like him, it may feel that he is disproportionately hated, because compared to the non-white/straight/male characters they like, he gets way more hate.

[(Anonymous)]

Plus, only looking at whether or not white male characters are hated doesn't give you a basis to compare against - it's not like fandom only hates male characters

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah this was my thought too. If he wasn't white, the fandom would either ignore him or just hate him even more.

[(Anonymous)]

ikr?

has the op even seen how fandoms act when a female or non-white character dares to have human emotions? they get fucking crucified, and it's even worse if those characters are 'getting in the way' of the fandom-fave ship.

[(Anonymous)]

That's the exact opposite of how things usually play out in fandom, but sure.

[(Anonymous)]

lmao fandom loves the shit out of asshole white dudes though (Loki, Kylo, Onceler, pretty much any villain), OP. If anything him being a white dude works in his favor. Meanwhile, Vanya gets almost, if not more, hatred than Luther. Being female or a POC just ensures a character will either face disproportionate hatred or complete indifference/be ignored.

[(Anonymous)]

i'm sorry you think that he'd be better liked if he was a woman or poc? bc my experience in fandoms across the years would lead me to believe the exact opposite.

[(Anonymous)]

Bet OP is a straight white male.

[(Anonymous)]

You do realize that no matter how loud they yell, the PC/pity police are not the majority of fans. They can whip whatever excuse convenient at the time as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that Luthor has some serious faults. Faults that none of the other siblings share as a whole. Even psychopathic Vanya can be excused by her reaching her breaking point, Klaus wanted to get clean, Five tried to fix the time rift, Ben is just doing his best, Allison literally would not use her power because she learned from her mistakes, Diego despite hating his father is the only one to continue the work he set out for them, and Luthor- Luthor didn't even try.
That is why he's the worst of the siblings. That is why, in the barest of context, people don't like him.

Usually when everyone rags on a character, there is a reason for it.
Diego made it clear he hated Vanya, but still gave her a vote (even if it was only because she sided with him) and more then that, he didn't want to leave her to suffer in a locked room. He bullied her, but wasn't about to torture her.

(btw, with a name like Luthor he isn't exactly white...)

[(Anonymous)]

"(btw, with a name like Luthor he isn't exactly white...)"

?

Possible origins of the name "Luthor":
- Germanic portmanteau name meaning "people's army"
- English trade surname meaning "maker of stringed instruments"
- after the prominent (German) figure in the Protestant movement, Martin Luther
- after the prominent (African-American) figure in the race relations and civil rights movement

Apart from what the actor actually looks like, three of those four options are pasty as PVA glue.

Have I totally misunderstood what you're trying to say? Because im very confused right now.

[(Anonymous)]

....wait what his NAME isn't white? What does that MEAN.