fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4517 ]

[ SECRET POST #4517 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4517 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 49 secrets from Secret Submission Post #647.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So I have a beta for my fic who seems to have this belief that everything in the fic needs a reason to be there or to 'fit' . Which you know I'd be fine with.

Except everything she personally doesnt like seems to "not fit" and when i try to make it a part of the fic, I'm "forcing it" and for the fic to be good I need to "let it go". It's annoying when most of the time I'm cutting ideas i want to use because they never seem to "fit" in my fic. According to her.

It's getting to the point where I dont enjoy fic writing anymore. I tried to talk this out with her but all she could say is "maybe you should quit then". I feel like a bad author for wanting to leave my beta but, if I dont enjoy writing with her,what's the point?

What do you guys think about the whole "this trope/ship needs a good reason to be allowed" idea? I'm starting to hate it because it feels like someone going through my things and tossing them out saying "you dont need that".

Okay. Your beta is talking bollocks, that's not at all how you beta someone's fic. Fuck em. Drop them like a hot potato and either find another or just enjoy writing and don't worry about it.

You're both right.

If you've tried everything and you're not having fun, then maybe you should quit.

You haven't tried everything though. You haven't tried finding a new beta. Boot this one and get another. Just like you're not entitled to have someone be your beta, no one is entitled to be your beta and be the final say on your fanworks, either.

IMO, nothing in fic needs a good reason to be "allowed," but things have to have internal sense and consistency. The most absurd things can make sense and have internal consistency if the right context is added or created around it. If a writer can't recognize that, they probably weren't making a good beta to begin with.

I think your beta's the one that doesn't fit, and you should stop forcing it.

A good beta will respect the story that the writer wants to tell, and help the writer get it to be the best story that it can be. It sounds like your current beta is trying to make your stories over into the kind of thing that she wants to read.

You're not trying to rewrite a story to the specifications of an editor who is actually going to give you money to do so. You are writing for fun, and if she wants you to take all the stuff that makes it fun for you out, it's time to part ways.

Tl; dr: you are not a bad author for wanting to leave your beta. You beta is a bad beta. At the very least, she's a bad beta for you, but if she's trying to get you to basically write fic to her specifications, and guilt and manipulate you when you disagree, I'm going to come out and make the statement that she's a bad beta, period.

Your beta sounds like she's letting her personal preferences get in the way of beta reading. Time to find a new one...ironically, this isn't a good fit.

DTMFA

Dump
The
Mother
Fucking
Asshole

this belief that everything in the fic needs a reason to be there or to 'fit'

I think this is largely true for things like movies and plays, where you have extremely limited time to tell a clear, concise story. It's somewhat true for things like TV and novels.

I don't think it's true for fanfic. Fanfic is a whole lot more flexible about stuff like that, IMO.

everything she personally doesnt like seems to "not fit" and when i try to make it a part of the fic, I'm "forcing it"

Without being able to read the fic, this is a hard call. Like, you're beta sounds really bad here, but at the same time, I've definitely read plenty of not very good fics that have a problem with internal consistency - where things just seem to come out of nowhere with no real logic or flow.

IMO this tends to be mainly an issue with things the characters do and feel. So like, if the writer wants one of their characters to cry in the other's arms, but they're impatient so they do almost no work to get the characters to that point, instead just forcing it to happen. Or the writer wants two characters who are just meeting to be incredibly attracted to each other, but again, they're impatient, so they skip any sort of build up, don't actually give the characters any particular reason to be wildly attracted to each other, and instead just jump right to both characters barely restraining themselves from fucking on a desk. IMO that pretty much always feels forced and cheap.

But OTOH, when it comes to stuff that happens to the characters, I don't think you generally need to work that hard to justify it or make it feel natural. You invent a reason for them to have to share a bed, and they share a bed. You invent a reason for one of them to get hurt, because you want the sexy, protective, intimate scene where the other patches them up. You invent an OC that hits on one of them because you want the jealousy feels.

It's getting to the point where I dont enjoy fic writing anymore.

Going beta-less is always going to be better than losing your enjoyment for writing and quitting. You are not obligated to bust your ass with betas and rewrites. Being receptive to a beta/editor is great, but writing and enjoying it is number one.

So. Okay. A lot of people can't really tell the difference between "media I like" and "well written media" and they assume that if they like it, that's an indicator of overall quality. Your beta is kind of the opposite... if she doesn't like it, she assumes it's not good.

However. I've betaed before for people who had tropes or themes they really, really liked to the point where they weren't able to be objective about it. It was like dealing with someone who loved mustard sooooo much they wanted to put it in EVERYTHING. Hot dogs and potato salad? Cool. In ice cream? Uh... not if you're planning on feeding this to an audience who doesn't necessarily share your tastes. Sometimes people are receptive to this advice, other times it's like OH NO YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG EVERYONE'S GONNA LOVE MY MUSTARD VANILLA CAKE WITH DIJON FROSTING YOU'RE THE CRAZY ONE K

That said, I think you should find a new beta anyway. Even if she's picking up on this issue correctly, she's not being terribly kind or diplomatic about it and the whole "maybe you should quit then" just sounds childish and sulky. It's time to find a new beta, hopefully one who can assess your fic objectively and see if maybe there's a chance you're trying to shoehorn in things that don't fit, or if you're actually fine.

>However. I've betaed before for people who had tropes or themes they really, really liked to the point where they weren't able to be objective about it. It was like dealing with someone who loved mustard sooooo much they wanted to put it in EVERYTHING. Hot dogs and potato salad? Cool. In ice cream? Uh... not if you're planning on feeding this to an audience who doesn't necessarily share your tastes. Sometimes people are receptive to this advice, other times it's like OH NO YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG EVERYONE'S GONNA LOVE MY MUSTARD VANILLA CAKE WITH DIJON FROSTING YOU'RE THE CRAZY ONE K

On the other hand, it's fanfic. If dijon mustard fic is what they wanna make, there's nothing technically wrong with that. There's an audience for everything.

Absolutely. But there's also an audience for weak plots, unrecognizable characterization, sex scenes that read like they're written by a 12 year old virgin, etc. if a writer isn't picky about the quality of their work, they don't need a beta. People who ask me to beta are concerned about the quality of their work, they're not content with just cranking out a slapdash fic even though there's a good chance someone out there will consume it, anyway.

I'm all for supporting people writing what they want. But a beta isn't your personal cheerleader. That isn't their job.

I didn't imply it was.

But if someone's goal is to write A/B/O fic and the beta thinks there's no place for that, then it's not really on the beta to be like, "you can't do this." A beta's goal should be to help the writer write the best thing they can out of what their intended goal is, e.g. write the best possible gratuitous A/B/O AU in a fandom not suited for that AU, not to be like "your goal is wrong. Write superheroes instead."

The scenario you describe is not one I'm referring to, though. We're not disagreeing, though it seems like you think we are? Or at least, you're arguing in opposition to something I didn't say.

The scenario I'm describing and referring to is OP's scenario, which is what the thread is about?

"a beta isn't your personal cheerleader. That isn't their job."

It's not OP's beta's job to cheerlead them either, but the beta should be honestly attempting to get OP's fic to where OP wants it to go with the best quality possible, not being like "I don't feel your goal fits here, do something else."

Well, no. I think you're rather badly misinterpreting that line. When I said a beta isn't a cheerleader, I meant that it's not their job to tell you that everything is okay because there's an audience somewhere for whatever it is you want to write. I meant that a beta's job is to give constructive criticism where applicable. That's not incompatible with what you said about getting OP's fic to where OP wants it to go.

It's extremely common that sometimes an author will want a fic to be [this thing] but they don't always know how to get it there, or they're too close to the work to see that what they're doing is hindering instead of helping. It's a beta's job to figure that out and give the appropriate feedback. If I'm beta reading someone's article that's supposed to be about apple growing in New England and I notice there's a several pages long tangent about orange harvesting in Florida, it's my job to point that out and advise the author that it's a part of their essay that doesn't fit their end goal.

Sure. I agree with all that, which is why I questioned your original post.

"Even if she's picking up on this issue correctly, she's not being terribly kind or diplomatic about it..."

That made it sound like authors who just wanted to do one thing, and do it well, had some kind of issue. Or that the issue lay with the author, which it kind of can't because the author is the one that by definition sets the goalposts. Imo, the author wanting to write what they want to write can't be an issue. That's the base you start off with.

If the beta feels like they can't help them get to those goalposts, or thinks the goalposts are terrible, the beta is the one that should be like "yo, I can't do help with this but good luck." Not be identifying what the author wants to do as an issue or telling them they're not being objective about a subjective thing. That's beyond being undiplomatic, that's playing director.

Sorry, but I'm really not seeing how you're getting that from the part of my comment you quoted. My point was that even if - and I emphasize IF - the beta was correct, she shouldn't have spoken that way to OP. There are more helpful ways to give constructive criticism and for that reason alone I'd encourage OP to find a new beta.

"Or that the issue lay with the author, which it kind of can't because the author is the one that by definition sets the goalposts."

Authors do set their own goalposts, yes. That doesn't mean they're always the best judge of whether or not they're hitting the mark. If that were true, no author would ever need a beta. So sometimes yes, the issue can lay with the author. Note that I'm not saying this is definitely the case with the OP, just that it's one thing to keep in mind.

"Not be identifying what the author wants to do as an issue or telling them they're not being objective about a subjective thing."

I think I see where you're misunderstanding. No, it's not the beta's job to decide what the author's goal is. But personally, I always ask the author upfront what they want out of their work, what message they want to send, what reaction they want from the audience, etc. That's part of my job. It's also my job to give feedback on things that don't further those goals, because authors do not and cannot always see this for themselves. It's not because they're dumb or blind, it's because it's very, very difficult to be objective about your own work.

Well, I'm usually the type to say that talking it out is a solution but...

I tried to talk this out with her but all she could say is "maybe you should quit then".

DUMP HER ASS.

Hey, writing is for you, so do it for you! You tried to talk it through and it didn't work, so try again without her, or with someone new. Some of my favourite parts in a fic are the little bits put there just for fun! Just because it doesn't 'fit' (which it subjective, imo) doesn't mean it doesn't belong, so you do you!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #4517 ]

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