fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #630 ]

[ SECRET POST #630 ]

⌈ Secret Post #630 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com

Pssst, you guys should go vote for us here! Us being

technophile,

mammaria, and

ironicbonds in T2,

telecast,

databomb and

tacky_tramp in T3, and

vociferocity in T1 (did I get all the F!S people? If I missed you, tell me!) -- and anyone else you find interesting, too. Yes, anyone is allowed to vote, so there's no need to feel bad about not participating or anything.

tl;dr: LET'S BREAK SOME POLLS.

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #090.
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Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

119. I was just thinking about that the other day. It would be so fucked up and wrong, and yet I kind of want to see it happen.

121. STEP ONE: Find some canons that have better treatment of women than Gurren Lagann. Read/watch. (Suggestion: Claymore.) STEP TWO: Write a Gurren Lagann AU where Kamina is a girl. Success!

142. I see no DS9. Fail. :(

Edited 2008-09-26 21:07 (UTC)

It's funny because in anime gender roles are usually meaningless. Characters, male or female, are just drawn in singular ways to attract determined audiences. Manga like Claymore or Mai-Hime with a completely female cast only feature females to attract the male otaku and the yuri-loving neck-beard crowd. Hell; Motoko Kusanagi, icon of "strong female protagonist", was just drawn as a girl because Shirow wanted to draw plenty of T&A.

The struggle of feminism in Anime/Manga couldn't be more ridiculous.

Isn't this all the more reason we should push for change, or at least for the issue to be debated? Or we could just continue to be complacent, happy with the way things are and the blatant sexism in one of our favorite forms of media?

What is the definition of "gender roles" in anime? I think it's a pretty meaningless struggle, specially since:

a) In anime, role models are particularly gender-less. The division between male and female characters is focused on whoever the illustrator has a preference for. What are we "fighting" for, really?
b) We're not Japanese. The anime industry is extremely self-contained. They work with low-budgets and are supported by the Japanese fanbase. We can't make a difference, no matter how hard we try. Besides, refer to point 1.

I disagree that portrayal of gender roles in anime is insignificant. How many times have we seen people complain about "useless female characters" only good for fan service and supporting the male leads? This, I think, reflects the creators' view on gender roles. More importantly, it also shows that we, the audience, are dissatisfied with the treatment these characters receive: just because this is what the artists think doesn't mean we're okay with it. When it comes to series that feature important female protagonists, you argue that the only reason they're female at all is because the creators want to reel in male otaku and "draw plenty of T&A": such judgment on the basis of gender is the core of sexism. People who believe in equality of the sexes would naturally be displeased if their entertainment supported such counterprogressive beliefs; this is why we should be vocal about it.

The argument that outsiders shouldn't interfere with another country's culture by imposing their personal beliefs often fails to take into consideration the fact that even within the country in question, there are already social movements aiming for change. Oftentimes, these movements receive support from organizations based in parts of the world where the "fight" has made greater progress. Even for Japan, where nationalism and gender equality often stand at odds, there is an enduring feminist movement in the undercurrent of society, whose supporters are greatly critical of the status quo I believe to be often reflected in anime and manga. Have you read any books by Chizuko Ueno? If you do, you will see how this issue is dissected from the point of view of a Japanese person.

Obviously, I am neither Japanese nor an academic, but I am part of the consumer base for this industry. It is hard to say that something is self-contained when it is actively seeking to license its products out to foreign markets. And while you can say that the foreign market for anime is as yet inconsequential compared to the Japanese fanbase, what's to say that this won't change in the near future? The western anime fanbase has seen great growth and become more structurally organized in the last 20-30 years. Foreign fans support the industry by spreading the word and getting people to learn about a form of media that maybe a decade ago was still considered little-understood. Now, anime art influences the style of people half way around the world, influences western media. Ten years ago we didn't have anything as cool as Avatar, now we do.

Anime is becoming more international by the day, and globalization has its side effects -- one of which is that as more people from other countries start to get into anime, they will bring into the experience their perspectives and personal beliefs. As the market grows, so will this trend, and just by talking about the significance of gender roles in anime, I believe that we're already taking the first steps towards changing things. Why do we want change? Because we love anime, and care about it -- many of us were in fact drawn into studying Japanese culture through anime. You say we can't change things no matter how hard we try, I say that's apathy and complacency at work. By bringing the issue of gender roles in anime (and Japan, by extension) onto an international forum, we can at least hope to effect change.

(And I also largely disagree with your opinion regarding Claymore -- whatever the original intention of the creator may have been, it's easy to see that end product is a wonderful and successful example of gender role reversal in a section of the industry that's notorious for throwing bit parts to the female cast. In the authorial intent vs. audience response debate, I tend to side with the latter, because that's what defines the extent of a work of fiction's influence.)

Edited 2008-09-27 00:10 (UTC)

Troll harder, post-modernist-kun.

Feel free to keep ignoring reality and cultural differences, bro.

I recommend you to try reading some interviews and insights on the reasoning behind characters in anime and manga, perhaps then you would understand. Not even Utena was intended as an statement on "gender roles" as much as it was supposed to be a tale about lost innocence and identity.

What makes you think I don't? (I haven't even watched Utena yet, by the way.)

Is it because you assume that no one who is ~*~well-informed~*~ could possibly care about gender roles in anime/manga?

I do read interviews and insights on characters in my favorite anime and manga. I am well aware they rarely even say anything on gender roles. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Authorial intent does not completely trump overriding societal constructions. Cope.

Characters in anime are intended as ideas beyond their sex. That's all I'm talking about. At times, the so called "strong female characters" are just female because the narrative was intended as FANSERVICE FOR MALES and they can't have a MAIN MALE CHARACTER. This was the case with Shirow's Ghost in the Shell, Mai-Hime or Gunbuster.

Nearly all characters are intended as ideas beyond their sex. What makes you think anime/manga is so special? The only exception I can think of is a work that is specifically intended as an allegory about gender, and I don't read many of those. Most of them are kind of boring.

You seem to be arguing from the perspective that if a work of fiction (specifically an anime or manga, for some inexplicable reason) was not specifically intended to say something about gender, then anyone who notices such meanings in it is a delusional idiot.

This is bullshit. It is, I'm sure, bullshit they teach in some college classes and promote in some philosophy/literary criticism books. It is still bullshit.

There are always social inferences that come from the narrative voice, indeed. What I'm talking about is that anime is different because it's not trying to reflect a social reality. Men and woman are more about their personality, with intended audience being the one thing that define their gender. It's not trying to create role-models for kids to follow. Gender in anime is so that people feel attached to the characters in a different way they would feel attached to a character in a book. MAI HUSBANDO, MAI WAIFU, MOE(for both male and female audiences) and similar ideas.

Regardless, gender in Gurren-Lagann is mostly not really a statement as such nor there is much subtext underneath its formula. Ultimately, the ONE warrior character was Simon. Kamina took the mentor role, Nia took the role of his teacher. Everyone else was just there to reinforce the point of identity and all that jazz. I believe that both you and the OP are reading lines that weren't intended to be read.

I believe that both you and the OP are reading lines that weren't intended to be read.

And here's where you keep going wrong.

It doesn't matter if the lines were intended to be read or not; if enough people nevertheless pick up the meaning and can support it with consistent examples from the text, there's probably something worth investigating there. I agree with you that Gurren Lagann was not really meant to say anything about gender roles, but I could still write quite a bit about what it says about gender roles unintentionally. (The reason I don't is a combination of laziness and not wanting to be forever shunned from at least one Simon/Nia corner of fandom. :P)

I also still don't see how your description of gender in anime differs from gender in fiction in general. It's not like most non-Japanese writers intend for the gender of their characters to "reflect a social reality," either. They're just trying to create characters.

I actually believe many writers do intend to reflect a "social reality" with their works. Regardless, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe there is a lot worth exploring on gender roles in Gurren-Lagann; but I have to admit to have thought a bit of Nia's story-arc and its ultimate conclusion as a feminist statement... ultimately, I'm sure there are many ways to read the same text.

I actually believe many writers do intend to reflect a "social reality" with their works.

You're right, many writers do inten to reflect a social reality. But again, intention has nothing to do with anything - writers do reflect a social reality, which is why you can talk about gender roles in Gurren Laggen even though they're irrelevent to the text of the series.

I think my issue here is...I don't see how whether something is "written to reflect a social reality" or "written to appeal to readers" really matters all that much (and I don't think that distinction is all that separate across cultures; some Western/non-Japanese fiction is written to appeal to readers, some Far Eastern/Japanese fiction is written to reflect social realities, and vice versa, although the proportions may vary).

A writer who classifies female characters into yamato nadeshiko and tsundere is doing them a disservice and sabotaging his own writing regardless of whether he does it because he believes this is an accurate reflection of female personality or because he thinks only those types of female characters will appeal to audiences. In both cases, the writer is treating "female" as a form of Other to be invoked specifically to conform to social norms or to appeal to male viewers rather than as just another type of human being to be treated with the same respect and given the same diversity as male characters. Can we directly change this, operating in fandom far outside of the anime mainstream itself? No, but we can mitigate its effects in fandom. Which brings me back to my initial comment--the OP was someone who was discouraged by the poor treatment of female characters in anime, so I suggested some ways of dealing with it.

I think that pretty much any fully-realized female character can be read as a feminist narrative, Yoko and Nia included. But some have more problems standing in the way than others. In Nia's case it would have helped if the show had given her more agency towards the end and given us a clearer idea of how much choice was involved in the acceptance of her death, and I harbor sad little fantasies that the second movie will give us some of that, but I acknowledge that this particular issue has more to do with Simon being the main character than with direct sexism.

Completely unrelated person here. According to the writer... Nia's death and the acceptance of it was completely her choice. She rejected any help Simon would be completely willing to give her, as it is pretty clear that if she had asked he would be completely willing to risk the Universe to the Spiral Nemesis, and decided to die with dignity and no regrets. I do agree that the show was at times perhaps too subtle with her development in the last few episodes, but I think it she was the one that got the most "strength" in them other than Simon. I would have liked to see more scenes of her defying the Anti-Spirals, myself; perhaps a more visually intense psychological battle.

As for the "feminist" idea to her story the other Anon mentioned... I kinda see it. She starts under the wing of her father, decides to become worthwhile for being Nia and nothing else, "rejects" her own status as princess, even when seen as an inferior creature she talks like if she deserves respect and doesn't care what the enemy thinks of her and ultimately dies as a result of her own freedom rather than as a victim.

Re: 121

annwyd.livejournal.com - 2008-09-27 00:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 121

(Anonymous) - 2008-09-27 00:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 121

(Anonymous) - 2008-09-27 00:23 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 121

(Anonymous) - 2008-09-27 00:31 (UTC) - Expand

...I harbor sad little fantasies that the second movie will give us some of that...

I thought I was the only one. They already gave Yoko protagonism and cinematic struggles in the first movie, and they said the second movie is for Simon AND Nia... so here's hoping she gets some much deserved spotlight. ;_;

Re: 121

annwyd.livejournal.com - 2008-09-27 00:14 (UTC) - Expand

bullshit they teach in some college classes and promote in some philosophy/literary criticism books

Hey now. Some philosophy enthusiasts can still see bullshit for what it is :D I have to agree about some Lit Theory majors, though.

I did say "some." There are plenty that promote perfectly sensible viewpoints. It's just more amusing to mock the ones that don't. ;)

But does that change the fact that Utana is strong female character? Step aside from intent some and look at the results more.

But the strong female characters are there to tell a story. They have stories completely unrelated to their genders and that's what I care about. I don't watch anime with the intention to read sexual statements, but I do agree that if people want to watch those shows for their strong characters they're completely justified to do so.

Yeah and I think female characters should be written by the same exact standards that male characters are written as. They often aren't. That's a problem.

I don't really agree with that. A character is defined by its personality.

I'm not seeing how this is mutually exclusive.

But the strong female characters are there to tell a story.

The thing you're missing is that that's a very big part of what makes them strong characters.

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[ SECRET POST #630 ]

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