fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4585 ]

[ SECRET POST #4585 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4585 ⌋

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07. [SPOILERS for Good Omens]

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A guy in my friend group, who everyone thought was straight (he's in a long term relationship with a woman) mentioned recently that he doesn't really care about gender, and that if things don't work out with his current partner, he'd be open to dating a guy in the future. Another friend of ours immediately asked if he preferred to be called bi or pansexual and he said neither. She said something along the lines of "well, if you're not straight or gay, it's got to be one of those", he asked why he needed a label at all, and her answer was something about the "social hierarchy" and how it's important as humans to have ways to categorize other people and that "if people reject labels it causes societal anarchy". She claims that it's "common knowledge" and she learned about it in a gender studies class (which doesn't make sense to me for multiple reasons) and...I'm just confused.

I've tried to google and can't find anything about what she's talking about. Has anyone heard of this? Is it actually a thing that it's somehow bad for society if people choose not to use labels for their sexuality or is it just some bullshit she's making up out of nowhere?

I'm no scholar, but I think your second friend is full of shit. I've never heard of anything she's talking about. I think it's very typical for people to be uncomfortable with people who don't like labels; I think society likes putting things in boxes. It's comfortable to know X is X and Y is Y, but I don't think it will result in social anarchy or anything if someone doesn't give their sexuality a concrete label.

/2 cents

Sounds like bullshit to me

I always hear the opposite. "Don't worry about labels!" "You don't need a label!" In fact I hear it so often it gets a little frustrating because I wish I had a label, or at least a better understanding of my sexuality.

But the idea that anyone has to have one is ridiculous. How the hell it could cause societal anarchy is beyond me. I've definitely never heard that before though my gender studies class was some 30 years ago and not big on queer theory.

Edited 2019-07-27 00:25 (UTC)

Lol your friend is talking out of her ass. Ridiculously so. Your other friend can call himself whatever he wants to, or nothing at all if that's his preference. Society won't dissolve because of it, either.

From what I can tell, intersectionality is built around labels, so I can see how someone who's bought into that ideology would consider it bad to reject labels.

That's not my understanding of it, but probably too complicated to talk it out in a comment box.

The way I think of it is - labels are like a map is to a piece of land. They're a representation of an underlying reality, but they're not the same as that reality. They're a messy, imprecise abstraction from it. That doesn't mean that they can't be useful. And they are important, because they're part of the way that we think about and understand the underlying reality, and that affects our actions. But the label shouldn't ultimately be confused for the reality.

"Labels are what we use when we can't point and grunt."

Here's a thing. Being straight is hella complex right now with millions of words published about relationships, especially post #metoo. Gay/lesbian? Complex, diverse, and talked to death. Bisexual (broadly defined "attraction to more than one gender or sex"), less visibly discussed but no two bi people seem to do the same relationship styles.

Identities are complex, negotiated, and flexible things. We all have different ones we wear in different social situations. That's what intersectionality highlights.

Your second friend sounds pretentious and trying to use book knowledge to browbeat people into doing what she thinks they should do.

I've never heard of it, but to be fair, even if it is a thing, that doesn't mean it isn't still bullshit.

I mean, I'm assuming the argument goes that the ability to categorise people is what allows us to build an organised structure around those categories, and that organised structure is the basis of civilisation. Which is probably true to an extent. However, overly rigid categories with no fluidity around them and no allowance for edge cases makes for extremely rigid structures that a) can fracture from within where those edge cases cause disruption, and b) have trouble dealing with external circumstance changes. Any societal system needs both enough categorisation (both broad and specific) to be functional AND enough internal fluidity to be adaptable as required. So, no, the world shouldn't end if someone's fluid or falls between categories. If it does, it was a very shoddily made system to start with.

The first thing I thought of was that one fanfic where Loki randomly stops to give a lecture about what demisexuality is in the middle of the story

And people going WTF who even does this??

People like your friend. Your friend is That Person Who Does This

huh?

It's like when people complain about math problems being unrealistic, then some guy really goes and does buy 883 watermelons

Sorry - are you saying that the friend who doesn't like labels is the one doing this, or the friend who thinks that labels are necessary

Oh, the one insisting someone else must call themselves either label A or label B of someone else's choosing and lecturing them on why out of nowhere

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

(Anonymous) - 2019-07-27 00:54 (UTC) - Expand

I have a need for cringe-fic and that sounds like that would fit the bill perfectly.

Imo people can label themselves whatever they want irl, even if that label is nothing, because this shit is pretty complicated and a very individual and personal thing. No one gets to tell another real-person who they are, or what they identify as, you choose for yourself and that's final.

The issue of 'not being into labels' is a TV thing ONLY for me where creators avoid having their bi/pan characters actually affix a label on themselves and thus continue to perpetuate the idea that those aren't legit identities. But that's it.

Edited 2019-07-27 00:41 (UTC)

Writers will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid using simple, direct, and realistic language for describing sexuality, to the point where my jaw dropped when Santa Clarita Diet dropped the line "when did you know you were bisexual?"

Ehh, I think they're both wrong. Lots of people do the "I don't wish to be labeled" or "it's complicated" thing, and it doesn't cause social anarchy or anything like that.

But if he's going to be honest about dating multiple genders, he's going to be labeled anyway by people who have a problem with that. And for all intents and purposes, "bi" is probably the least problematic label he'll likely get. It's a big reason why I'm unimpressed by identifying as pan or queer outside of queer circles. I'm read as a bi guy and get shit as a bi guy no matter which label I prefer.

It sounds like they're confusing label and identity.

Labels aren't something you give yourself. Other people label you. You can try to reject those labels, but if the other people aren't convinced, too bad.

An identity is something you have, and other people can't tell you is different. They can try to reject your identity, but if you're not convinced, too bad.

He may identify as nothing or none of the above. She doesn't have to accept that.

She gets to choose what to label him in her head, no matter what he says. He doesn't have to accept that either.

/shrug

Nope. Not a problem at all. People get to decide or not decide for them selves. No one else gets to decide or force labels on a person. No one gets to force someone else to decide. Sexuality is inherently personal. You're friend is being ridiculous.

Sounds like she's just a dick. Labeling doesn't help anybody if you're just going to make people uncomfortable by forcing them into one, humanity isn't a supermarket.

Some people are just *really* hung up on labels and I've met a few who I'm pretty sure we're making up the bullshit reasons they gave as justification for why people need to label themselves or are a certain label. I don't know what I am and gave up trying to fit in their boxes a while ago. I was born a woman and am married to a man. I want to become a man but won't do it while I'm married. The closest label I can find for the fanatics is traitor and I don't feel that way at all. My heterosexaul husband married a woman and does not want to be married to a man. I've always lived as a woman and I want to be married to my husband. I call myself lucky because I know not everyone could live that way but I can.

ANARCHY!

I'm just lol-ing over the mental image of someone refusing to label their sexuality and suddenly everyone breaks out rioting and burning cars and shit.

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[ SECRET POST #4585 ]

Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

Re: Is it really a problem if people choose not to label their sexuality?

No label? LET'S RIOT!