Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-10-19 05:13 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-10-19 05:13 pm
[ SECRET POST #653 ]
⌈ Secret Post #653 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
__________________________________________________
102.
[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!; Dino/Hibari]
__________________________________________________
103.
[Stargate Atlantis; McShep]
__________________________________________________
104.
[Beatles]
__________________________________________________
105.
__________________________________________________
106.
__________________________________________________
107.
__________________________________________________
108.
__________________________________________________
109.
[Miyavi]
__________________________________________________
110.
__________________________________________________
111.
[Catherine Tate/James Nesbitt]
__________________________________________________
112.
[FFVII etc; Zack Fair]
__________________________________________________
113.
__________________________________________________
114.
[The Office]
__________________________________________________
115.
__________________________________________________
116.
[Camp Rock]
__________________________________________________
117.
[Kingdom Hearts]
__________________________________________________
118.
[Picture is Torchwood]
__________________________________________________
119.
[Vincent Van Gogh/Paul Gauguin]
__________________________________________________
120.
[Matila]
__________________________________________________
121.
__________________________________________________
122.
__________________________________________________
123.
[Detroit Metal City]
__________________________________________________
124.
[Mamma Mia (movie)]
__________________________________________________
125.
__________________________________________________
126.
__________________________________________________
127.
__________________________________________________
128.
[Code Geass]
__________________________________________________
129.
__________________________________________________
130.
__________________________________________________
131.
[Alexander Hamilton?]
__________________________________________________
132.
__________________________________________________
133.
__________________________________________________
134.
[Xenosaga]
__________________________________________________
135.
[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]
__________________________________________________
136.
__________________________________________________
137.
[Yu Yu Hakusho]
__________________________________________________
138.
__________________________________________________
139.
__________________________________________________
140.
[Gurren Lagann; Kittan]
__________________________________________________
141.
__________________________________________________
142.
[Torchwood]
__________________________________________________
143.
__________________________________________________
144.
[OrgInfinity; Black Tears]
__________________________________________________
145.
[Hellboy]
__________________________________________________
146.
[pic is GirlSnake and GirlOtacon from MGS]
__________________________________________________
147.
[G Gundam]
__________________________________________________
148.
[The Office]
__________________________________________________
149.
[Zelda: Phantom Hourglass]
__________________________________________________
150.
__________________________________________________
151.
__________________________________________________
152.
[Hoshi no Yakata by Tori Maia]
__________________________________________________
153.
[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]
__________________________________________________
154.
[Destination Truth]
__________________________________________________
155.
[World of Warcraft]
__________________________________________________
156.
[Metal Gear Solid]
__________________________________________________
157.
__________________________________________________
158.
__________________________________________________
159.
[Death Note]
__________________________________________________
160.
Notes:
CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/
HAS EVERYONE SEEN THE MOTHER 3 FAN TRANSLATION? (:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 367 secrets from Secret Submission Post #094.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Neither? I'm aware that other people can do and say sexist things. If you want to actually counter my argument, present me with a sexist trend you see in het/gen fandom that's comparable.
Yes, all het fans are perfect, shining examples of itegrity. None of them are ever elitist, self-righteous, arrogant or holier-than-thou. We should all endeavor to be more like the wonderful het fan, for s/he is truly our superior.
Yeah, because saying that slash fans have superiority complexes about the subversiveness of their ships is the same thing as saying that het fans are all perfect.
Yes, they do. Maybe not by you, but it does happen.
Okay.
Yay! A complete non sequitor about the inherent inferiority of slash fans! Do you have any other totally non-hypocritical examples you'd like to share?
STFD, I never said slash fans were inferior. I said that they had bigger chunks of annoying. Did I mention how irritating it gets when slash fans are so busy being defensive that they don't even notice that no one is attacking them?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 02:19 am (UTC)(link)This is a tough one for me to answer because we have very different ideas about how serious this behavior is. Saying that you find female characters boring isn't all that bad. Comparatively speaking, anyway. I'd put it up there with calling any sexually active female characters "whores."
Maybe this is because I don't think that there's necessarily a connection between a person's attitude toward female characters and their attitude towards real life women. I've known slash fans who find female characters boring, but have tons of female friends and are devoted to feminist causes. Conversely, I've met people who love female characters, but say that they can't be friends with real life women because "girls are petty cunts."
Yeah, because saying that slash fans have superiority complexes about the subversiveness of their ships is the same thing as saying that het fans are all perfect.
No, but saying that het fans never have superiority complexes is. Since you've clearly forgotten what happened, I'll recap:
You said that slash fans have superiority complexes.
I agreed, but said that het fans do, too: Het fans are superior because they don't "twist the characters around just for the buttsex" (twisting the characters around for the penis-in-vagina sex is totally different!)
You responded by telling me that this wasn't bad behavior, it was totally justified: In the view of those het shippers, the character in question is straight and therefore slash is OOC. It has nothing to do with a holier-than-thou approach to their ships so much as it has to do with either interpretation of the character in some cases or reliance on cultural norms about sexuality in others.
Slash fans who claim that slash is better because it's "subversive" are simply annoying. Het fans who claim that het is superior are either just honest folks defending their interpretations or poor misguided souls. You personally insulted slashers while defending the honor of het fans. Looks like a double standard to me.
STFD, I never said slash fans were inferior. I said that they had bigger chunks of annoying.
And that their annoying was much worse than the annoying of het and gen fans. Oh, and that they're more sexist. And then when I pointed out bad behavior from het fans, you immediately jumped up to defend them, claiming that they were just trying to do the right thing and had no bad motives whatsoever.
Did I mention how irritating it gets when slash fans are so busy being defensive that they don't even notice that no one is attacking them?
This is the best thing I've ever read! You just proved my point! I honestly laughed out loud.
Since I doubt you remember, here's what I originally said:
The real problem is that so many people see a yaoi/slash fan behaving badly and think, "Yaoi/slash fans must all be assholes," instead of "This particular person is an asshole."
no subject
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 02:40 am (UTC)(link)That's just a lie. I honestly don't know if you're trying to confuse me or just in denial, but it's not true.
Here's what really happened: I started by saying that some people make generalizations about all slash fans based on the bad behavior of a few.
You responded by saying: Also, you just got three specific examples of shit yaoi fans do that het/gen ones don't: Hate on female charas for "being in the way," run around slapping people with paddles and insist that their ships are inherently more worthy and subversive (obviously I am leaving bona-fide homophobes out of this discussion since it is only tangentally relevant.)
I don't see anything about all slash fans being stupid, immature 14 year olds in there.
After that your primary focus was still on the hatred of female characters, not on the relative age or maturity level of slash fans. You didn't bring up the stupidity/maturity factor in this thread at all.
And you still proved my point: when you didn't like what I was saying, you didn't think that I was annoying, you used it as proof of how annoying slash fans are.
no subject
"Yaoi/slash is the trendy thing among 14 year olds into Kingdom Hearts. It's as cliched and common as Mary Sues.
Also, you just got three specific examples of shit yaoi fans do that het/gen ones don't..."
I also never said anything about ALL SLASH FANS being stupid and immature 14 year olds. I said that slash fans have a disproportionate amount.
You would have concluded that I proved your point no matter what I said because you're inventing my arguments and feelings on the matter and then responding to them.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 03:20 am (UTC)(link)Ah, I forgot about that non sequitor. But if that was what you were "really talking about" why didn't you explain all this when I asked you why that was relevant? You dropped that thread in order to focus on misogyny and just brought it up again now.
I also never said anything about ALL SLASH FANS being stupid and immature 14 year olds. I said that slash fans have a disproportionate amount
You're right, I was exagerrating. However, the point remains: you think that slash fans are, on average, more stupid and less mature than het fans, right? That is what you're saying here.
You would have concluded that I proved your point no matter what I said because you're inventing my arguments and feelings on the matter and then responding to them.
No, I concluded that you proved my point when you engaged in the very behavior I was complaining about. Big difference.
no subject
No, holy shit. If you want to talk mathematical average then maybe, because as I just said, yaoi/slash fans have a bit of a bulge in population among young and immature fangirls and it throws off the bell curve. I think that if you compared slash and het fans randomly in an older age bracket you'd find them to be roughly as annoying as one another.
I did veer off on a tangent about slash and subversiveness and argued that slash fans have the capacity to be much more pretentious than het fans about the politics of their fandom, and while I stand by that, it wasn't my original point and really had nothing to do with the kind of fans I was talking about initially.
That is what you're saying here.
That's what you're saying I'm saying. I don't think you're paying very much attention to what I'm actually saying.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 03:57 am (UTC)(link)Oh, this again. Your experience != reality. Just because you've met more young slash fans than het fans, doesn't mean that there actually are more kids writing slash than het. I've said it a few more times, but I've never met a fan that young and I've been in fandom for nearly ten years.
I think that if you compared slash and het fans randomly in an older age bracket you'd find them to be roughly as annoying as one another.
I agree.
I did veer off on a tangent about slash and subversiveness and argued that slash fans have the capacity to be much more pretentious than het fans about the politics of their fandom, and while I stand by that, it wasn't my original point and really had nothing to do with the kind of fans I was talking about initially.
If by "tangent" you mean "the main thing we were discussing" then, yeah, I guess that's true. Maybe the problem here is that we were having two different discussions. Here's how it looked to me:
I said that people often make unfair generalizations about slash fans.
You said that a lot of Kingdom Hearts slashers were young. And that they did bad things that het and gen fans didn't.
I asked why you mentioned the Kingdom Hearts thing. Then I responded to your accusations about the behavior of slash fans.
Your next response dealt with misogyny and whether or not het fans had a superiority complex. The relative age and maturity level was not brought up again in that thread until I mentioned it. And I was being rather charitable, since you were talking about how slash has more stupid fans than het and gen fans.
Since I'm not psychic, I can't tell what you're "actually saying." All I can tell you is how this conversation looks to me. If you've got a different perspective, please tell me about it. It'd certainly be interesting.
no subject
My experience != reality, but yours does?
Maybe the problem here is that we were having two different discussions.
Sounds likely at this point.
You said that a lot of Kingdom Hearts slashers were young. And that they did bad things that het and gen fans didn't.
I asked why you mentioned the Kingdom Hearts thing.
If you look at it again you'll find you didn't ask, you made an offhand, dismissive comment about it and then you asked about other stuff.
And I was being rather charitable, since you were talking about how slash has more stupid fans than het and gen fans.
For the most part I was talking about how slash had more stupid fans than het and gen in the context of what I said earlier about young slash fangirls.
Since I'm not psychic, I can't tell what you're "actually saying."
You've been inventing a lot of what I said, as far as I can tell.
How this conversation went, in my opinion, is that I opened by saying that because slash demographics are different than het ones, I do think it's pretty fair to say that there are more annoying yaoi fangirls and that there are things peculiar to them, such as yaoi paddles, hating all female characters, etc. Every response of yours thereafter exagerrated whatever my point was and interpreted my jumping-off point as "slash fans suck, lol."
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 04:20 am (UTC)(link)Nope. I don't deny that there are skads of young, bratty, wanky slash fans. But I know way too many adult slash fans (of varying degrees of bratty and wankiness) to think that they're the majority.
If you look at it again you'll find you didn't ask, you made an offhand, dismissive comment about it and then you asked about other stuff.
This is exactly how the "two different conversations" stuff starts. While I won't pretend that it wasn't a dismissive remark, I kind of assumed that if it actually was relevant, you'd explain how. In my head That's interesting, but I don't see how it's relevant to my original point is a question, even if it's a bit condescending.
For the most part I was talking about how slash had more stupid fans than het and gen in the context of what I said earlier about young slash fangirls.
But, see, since you hadn't ever told me how that was relevant, I couldn't have possibly known that. All I heard was "slash fans are stupid" not "slash fans are young and young fans are stupid".
How this conversation went, in my opinion, is that I opened by saying that because slash demographics are different than het ones, I do think it's pretty fair to say that there are more annoying yaoi fangirls and that there are things peculiar to them, such as yaoi paddles, hating all female characters, etc. Every response of yours thereafter exagerrated whatever my point was and interpreted my jumping-off point as "slash fans suck, lol."
Like I said above, since you never explicitly linked the two concepts in the original post (you connected the age statement and the list of grievances with the word "also" not "therefore" or "so" or anything else that would indicate causality) I had no reason to see them as separate points.
So, based on a misunderstanding on both our parts, you thought you were talking about how young fans acted and I thought you were talking about how all slash fans acted. Even if I'd understood what you were saying, I wouldn't still disagreed with you, but if we'd understood each other a little better, this conversation would have gone much differently.
no subject
- I think slash fans are way more sexist than het fans
- I think all het fans are perfect, shining examples of integrity
- I am creating double-standards by which to judge slash and het fans
- I believe that het fans never have any bad motives whatsoever
- I am lying, or maybe just in denial
- I think that slash is inferior to het/gen
- I think that all slash fans are stupid, immature 14 year olds
None of which are true, by the way, but damn are you determined to make it out like I hate all slashers.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 03:46 am (UTC)(link)"No particular reason?" Maybe it's because of people who constantly (like, say, in every single f!s post I've seen since I started visiting this comm a few months ago) harp on how much they don't like slashers. Constantly accusing people of things tends to make them defensive.
I think slash fans are way more sexist than het fans
You said that "hating on female chars for being in the way" was something that het fans didn't do. When I pointed out that all 'shippers did that, you said that you're not going to hear "I hate all male/female characters" coming from het/gen fandom any time soon. After I said that there were other types of misogyny in het and gen fandom, you asked me to list ones that were "comparable." So, it sounds like that's exactly what you were saying.
I think all het fans are perfect, shining examples of integrity
No, that was (poorly executed) sarcasm. When I pointed out instances of het fans behaving badly, you defended them. So, I made a ridiculously over the top response intended to show you how biased you were being. It didn't work, obviously.
I am creating double-standards by which to judge slash and het fans
When you keep talking about how annoying slash fans are while simultaneously defending het fans at every single opportunity, what am I supposed to think?
I believe that het fans never have any bad motives whatsoever
That's called "hyperbole". Maybe you shouldn't take everything at face value.
I am lying, or maybe just in denial
I said that right after you made an obviously untrue statement.
I think that slash is inferior to het/gen
Hmm, maybe "inferior" isn't the right word. But you certainly have an extremely negative view of slashers.
I think that all slash fans are stupid, immature 14 year olds
No, just most of them.
no subject
I'm not defending het fans at every opportunity, nor am I bashing slash fans at every opportunity. I don't even understand how you got that impression but it's pretty consistent with your (largely unfounded) approach to me in general, so what am I supposed to do about it?
I don't have a negative view of slashers. I have issues with a couple specific corners of slash fandom, but I've got similar ones with het fandom. If I'm giving anyone preference here it's definitely the gen folks.
I didn't infer most of them any more than I inferred all of them.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-20 04:28 am (UTC)(link)I agree.
I'm not defending het fans at every opportunity, nor am I bashing slash fans at every opportunity.
... I need to cut out the hyperbole, don't I? It's not translating well. My point was that, when presented with a critical view of het fans behavior, you defended them. Since you didn't do the same thing to slash fans, even in similar situations, it struck me as unbalanced.
I don't even understand how you got that impression but it's pretty consistent with your (largely unfounded) approach to me in general, so what am I supposed to do about it?
Yeah, I really shouldn't have said that. Can I play the "it's late and I've had a bad day" card? I have seen you involved in other discussions where you were very critical of slash fans, but it wasn't fair for me to bring that up.
If I'm giving anyone preference here it's definitely the gen folks.
Most people do. I'm not trying to say anything negative about the gen fans themselves, since all the ones I've known have been perfectly nice, but I do think gen fans get treated differently than 'shippers. It's unfair, but what are you gonna do?