[ SECRET POST #4726 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4726 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 36 secrets from Secret Submission Post #677.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I liked it up to a certain point. There were a lot of flaws and ideals that deviated from what I like to associate with Star Trek. The episode where Nog asks Sisco to sponsor him so he can join Starfleet is particularly against what I love about Star Trek. Literally only because he's Ferengi Sisco won't even consider doing it, he has to be convinced tenfold just to think, 'well maybe Nog's not your typical Ferengi', which is beyond backwards.
(also the episode with Worf and his brother, Sisco literally says something along the lines of 'having enough of respecting other peoples cultures')

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, and Sisko is shown to be wrong in both of those cases. DS9 is great for more complex looks at issues, and I'm fine with people not liking that, but you're trying to say that one of the multiple viewpoints put forward is the one that's supposed to be "right", which is really not the case.

(Also, the reason Nog needs a sponsor isn't because he's a Ferengi as such, it's because he's not a Federation citizen.)

[(Anonymous)]

Not really? In the case of Sisco being portrayed as wrong, I chose those two examples because they were distinctly portrayed as the commonplace idea. In Nog's case Sisco is proven wrong, but my problem wasn't with him needing a sponsor, but rather Sisco completely disregarding him simply because he was Ferengi. He had Jake's encouragement, and Nog's own enthusiasm/dedication to join Starfleet, but Sisco said no only because the very idea of a Ferengi joining Starfleet was laughable to him. It's just racism. He wasn't asked to do anything other than sign a piece of paper, and it wasn't as if there was any risk involved to him or Nog for that matter. Even if this was played as a parallel, it still wouldn't have worked since they treated the whole thing as a joke.

In the scene with Worf and his brother, Sisco was framed as the 'voice of reason'. It wasn't so much that he was trying to put a stop to the two trying to kill each other, because in that case he was right to do so. It was the specific wording the script used to advance the narration/plot. It's the phrasing that 'I've had enough with being tolerant to other peoples cultures' which goes against everything Star Trek, and even more so Starfleet represents. There was no pushback either, since Sisco directed it as an order, and as unhappy as they were about it, they were obliged to obey.

In another episode, when they're analyzing the mining potential of a planet and a Dominion ship crash lands nearby, the resulting conflict results in the deaths of the wayabout crew, and a few redshirts in the party. The episode ends with Dax(?) saying something like 'they knew the risks when they signed up for Starfleet'. Which it true, but Starfleet is peaceful by nature, not warmongering. The entire episode is Sisco getting his colleagues killed because he doesn't want to lose the technology in the ship, and refusing all offers the Dominion makes him, even when they only want on item inside and allow them to keep the ship. Sisco has right to be distrustful, but he doesn't even request a med-kit as a show of good faith that would have saved Munez's life. It's very militaristic, and Dax's words at the end cement the idea that those men's deaths were worth the lost of a single Dominion ship!

It's things like that which make it a hard sell as being the best Star Trek series.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree mostly with your last paragraph. It's far from my favourite episode for mostly for the reasons you mention. Although, the dominion shooting down the Runabout and then saying they won't hurt anybody. Is kind of a tough sell.

I don't agree with you about Sisko disregarding Nog, because he's a Ferengi. Nog is plainly told when he asks if it's about him being Ferengi. That no it's about him having been in trouble with the law on multiple occasions and his grades being average at best. He's not someone Sisko would recommend to Starfleet even if he wasn't Ferengi. This point is pretty much emphasized by Jadzia, who likes the idea of a Ferengi in Starfleet, but still wouldn't have considered Nog.

As for your second point. He didn't say that. He said "I've given you both a lot of leeway when it comes to following Klingon rituals, but this is not a Klingon ship and those are not Klingon uniforms, and there is a limit to how far I'll go to accommodate cultural diversity among my officers, and you just reached it. Find another way to settle you family problems."
Honestly? I don't find this unreasonable. Especially since it's Sisko who's ultimately responsible for anything that his officers do on DS9.

Now, I DO agree that DS9 feels like a very different series that TOS or TNG. It's much darker, there are more shades of grey and the fact that Starfleet is on DS9, basically, for the protection of the Bajorans against the Cardassians. Even if they don't call it that. Does make this series more militaristic from the onset than other series.
Since Starfleet does double as the Federations military force, I personally don't mind the focus on that, but I do understand that this is not what everybody is looking for in a Star Trek series.

My own biggest dislike, besides Berman, is mostly in the later part of the series where you get the "Space Jesus vs the Devil" subplot. Both Sisko and Dukat didn't deserve such an ending. As they were more set-up as morally complex characters. Only to end up in a clichéd morally black & white fight between good & evil.

As for the original question on whether this is the best Star Trek series.
For me personally yes. But, 'objectively' is it what Roddenberry had in mind when he created Star Trek? Definitely not.

AYRT - Sorry for the late reply!

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the mining episode wasn't one I'd watch again, though I could have sworn that the crashing Dominion ship was what took out the Runabout, not the one who came in to retrieve it. I'm going off memory for most of this, so I wouldn't be surprised if I got more than a few details wrong.

With Nog, I get your point. But I find his bravery in trying to chose a path that isn't taking over/aiding the bar or another Ferengi suited employment completely disregarded by Sisco/Jadzia. Sisco himself threatened Nog's imprisonment as blackmail to keep Quark running his bar in the very first episode. It is that deed by which Sisco/Jadzia used against Nog as reason to keep him from joining Starfleet. A crime which doesn't even have a record. Sisco broke even more laws than Nog did with his blackmail than Nog did trying to loot a dead station.
His grades are hard to put against him. Keiko ran a Bojoran heavy class, and ran into trouble as she tried to expand from those ideals. From what I recall the children were left without any schooling after the Bajorn council stepped in. Wanting to join Starfleet Nog wanted to learn, and literally put not only his own reputation at risk, but also his father's and his uncle's. Which is no easy task for a Ferengi. Nog's want to be a part of Starfleet should have been enough, imo.

With Worf, I don't know. Klingon's had been part of the Federation for a long while by then. Their rituals and practices would have hundred's of notations each on how to deal with them. I get it that it's the plot/storywriter trying to cut corners, but that phrasing should not be anywhere involved when dealing with long standing, heavily cultural, traditions. Especially since, as part of Starfleet, Klingon's have every right to their traditions as a Trill does. Like when Jadzia uses all the highest ranking crew officers as vessels for all of Dax's previous hosts.

I agree with the rest of what you said as well,.. DS9 was so good, but only for so long, imo. I just really disliked a lot of what it ended up being.