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fandomsecrets2008-11-09 04:42 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-11-09 04:42 pm
[ SECRET POST #674 ]
⌈ Secret Post #674 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[A Song of Ice and Fire]
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[Putin/Obama (OTP)]
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Notes:
CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/
Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 294 secrets from Secret Submission Post #096.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 135
(Anonymous) 2008-11-10 01:48 am (UTC)(link)OOC!top!Harry fics are usually accompanied by OOC!nice!womanly!Draco, neither of which are good. However, OOC bottom!Harry is just as far away from IC as OOC!bottomDraco, so I guess it's really that OOC = bad.
Re: 135
Actually (after four books of being extremely short), it's just mentioned that he grows a lot, but is still shorter than Ron (who is unusually tall), and that he considers Draco tall (so Harry is presumably shorter than him). It's all very vague.
I see him as someone fairly.. aggressive, not towards people, but more in a 'determined to get what he wants' sort of way.
But he never does anything about his feelings in canon. He just sort of... broods? Angsts? Both Cho and Ginny have to pretty much grab him and kiss him before anything happens (which made me grin, actually, despite that I didn't much like Harry/Ginny).
OOC!top!Harry fics are usually accompanied by OOC!nice!womanly!Draco
Argh, yes, don't remind me. >_< His elegant, soft hands, slender, willowy body, and refined, beautiful face have shown up in more fic than I care to remember.
The whole point of H/D is that they relate to each other on the same level, and that they're very similar and very different at the same time. They both have fierce passion, a tendency to give their all, are competitive, very protective of those they consider family, and have leanings towards being cunning. I think exploring those as well as their differences makes the pairing one of the most interesting I know.
However, OOC bottom!Harry is just as far away from IC as OOC!bottomDraco
Definitely. But fandom seems to be agreed on that, so I'm a lot less irritated by it. OOC bottom!Draco and top!Harry is what all the acknowledged goodficcers are writing, which makes it a lot worse when you want to read fic. *sigh*
Harry is the most like a normal teenaged boy when it comes to romance-- interested, very willing (except that he has to put other things first during the books), and curious, but lack of experience makes him a bit shy.
I agree, but with an addition; I think his childhood has made him a bit more awkward than normal, when it comes to social interaction. There are implications of it in the books, even if they aren't blatant.
Re: 135
(Anonymous) 2008-11-10 03:33 am (UTC)(link)1) Narcissa Malfoy is tall for a woman.
2) Draco is just as tall, at the beginning of HBP
Tall for a woman ~>5'9"-6'
3) James is "tall", as described by Harry
4) James is the same height as Harry, as per DH
5) Harry is SLIGHTLY SHORTER than Draco (as Harry described Draco as "slightly taller" in DH)
So, we can assume they are both around/over 5'10" at least. This is, of course, with neither of them being done puberty, but w/e it's as close as we're going to get to the final say.
He broods and angst, this is true-- but he also knows what he wants, and (once he gets over himself) goes for it. He's the one who kissed Ginny after the Quidditch match, IIRC.
When I see goodfic being written by authors that is top!Harry/bottom!Draco, it's NOT IC-- because if it's not IC, they aren't good authors. It's really as simple as that. You should try
Yes-- he's not EXACTLY like a teenaged boy in romance, but it's as normal as he seems to get.
Re: 135
I had completely forgotten that Harry is as tall as Narcissa now! That's good to know. I couldn't find where her height was mentioned, though?
James is "tall", as described by Harry
Yeah, but that's in PS, isn't it? When Harry himself is still super tiny?
I mean, since Harry is the narrator, we have to take into consideration that his impressions are sometimes highly subjective.
He broods and angst, this is true-- but he also knows what he wants, and (once he gets over himself) goes for it. He's the one who kissed Ginny after the Quidditch match, IIRC.
Actually it isn't; she runs across the room and throws herself in his arms. He kisses her, but if she hadn't already been aiming for it, he wouldn't have been able to (ordinary hugs will out your face at an impossible angle). So he didn't go for it - Ginny did (and it was the one part of their relationship/courtship that I actually liked XD).
When I see goodfic being written by authors that is top!Harry/bottom!Draco, it's NOT IC-- because if it's not IC, they aren't good authors.
Well, if I put it like this: most of the older lj-fandom consider them goodficcers. I don't agree in terms of characterisation, though I do think they can often plot and turn a phrase with the best.
Mostly my complaints are:
1) They make Harry too angry. He has moved on since OotP!
2) They make him completely humourless. He's got an almost constant, highly ironic internal commentary throughout the books! He's got the dryest wit in the series!
3) They make him too confident in social settings. This is what we talked about earlier.
4) They make him too... vengeful, maybe? Mostly, he's a very forgiving person. The reason he carries grudges against Snape and Draco is that they keep on doing things to him. He forgives the rest of the school time and again, aven when they've accused him of cold-blooded murder!
5) They make him too violent, and an instigator of violence. It's almost always somebody else who attacks him first in canon. Especially in the case of Draco and Snape. He never goes out of his way to get at those he dislikes. Mostly he just tries to keep away.
Argh, so sorry for the essay! I should make a proper one and post it somewhere, haha. ^^;
Re: 135
(Anonymous) 2008-11-10 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)True-- but we also get descriptions of Siris as tall in PoA, Narcissa as tall in CoS, etc etc, but the important thing to note is that not all characters are described as tall. Notably: Snape. (And Remus, but this is only an issue because of movie casting.) So while we've got to take some things with a bit of a "this is from Harry's POV, don't take it at his word!", we also have to just accept some descriptions as they are, because how else is JKR going to describe people? (PS- the slightly taller thing is in the Malfoy manor chapter, right around when Harry gets Draco&Bellatrix' wands.)
On Ginny: Ginny threw herself into his arms, yes-- but that's obviously what she had to do to get him over his own "oh no it's Ron's sister!!1"/"dating someone else NOT MY PLACE" mentality that he'd been working at so very hard at maintaining in that book.
Going point by point...
1) Harry does have anger management/obsessive issues, though. Not only do we see it displayed over and over in canon (most clearly starting in PoA, but chugging along very nicely all the way through DH), JKR has listed that as one of Harry's major flaws.
2) ...Humourless Harry would be a lose. I agree.
3) This, I can't agree with you on. I would have agreed with you on it, up until DH, but the fact that Harry so easily accepts that he is the leader of the students at Hogwarts (once he accept their help at all). All the students expected it to happen-- and after he accepts that he doesn't have to do it alone, he takes up the mantle of leader with ease. I HATED it, in the book, but it's there, and I have to just accept that Harry=confident leader.
4) We don't actually know that that's the reason he holds those grudges against Snape and Draco-- especially because almost all the other arguments/fights he got into with Gryffindor/Hogwarts/Ron were because of people misunderstanding his character. Vengeful!Harry is pretty canon, to me-- going after Sirius in PoA, swearing revenge on Snape-- he's very focused in it, though. It doesn't bleed over to other people, because he tends to put the blame on one person, and hate them with everything he's got.
5) Again, open to interpretation-- again this is a DH change for me, but the fact that spitting on Mcgonagall was an acceptable reason to cast Crucio and basically show no remorse? It ties in with the whole vengeance/anger management thing, but in the heat of the moment, Harry does a lot of stupid, violent things, which he doesn't always show regret for.
Essays: we're both doing them. XD
I remembered the other thing I had to say on top/bottom H/D. In top!Draco/bottom!Harry, Draco's character goes much further away from he is in canon than top!Harry seems to go. Top!Harry might be over exaggerated-- too confident, too angry, too tall, but Top!Draco is often just plain ol' OOC. HBP and DH show fairly clearly that Draco is intensely, intensely loyal to his family, above all else, and the end of HBP (as well as almost every scene he's in in DH) show that he's not (at all? very?) willing to do (fatal) harm to others for the sake of his Cause. Not to mention the utter BS that is the "Malfoy Mask". Lucius Malfoy brawled in a bookstore, and Draco doesn't seem to do much better. They might try to seem cool and in control, but they've both got tempers they are bad at controlling.
Re: 135
Yeah, and usually I don't think about it that much, since it really isn't that important most of the time. With Harry, I just became annoyed with all the fic where he was a large, muscled Adonis to Draco's short, fine-boned graceful beauty.
Harry is a tiny little thing up until OotP, which is when he had his first growth spurt, IIRC. Which is why I only made up my mind about Snape's and Sirius's heights when they were compared to each other (even if that was in OotP).
Ginny threw herself into his arms, yes-- but that's obviously what she had to do to get him over his own "oh no it's Ron's sister!!1"/"dating someone else NOT MY PLACE"
Oh yeah, but it was still Ginny who had to do it; Harry probably could have wavered forever, heh. I think he can be very active in a relationship once he's in one - he just has problems taking the first step in social situations, so to speak.
Going point by point...
I'll do the same!
1) Oh yes. But not to the degree he does in OotP, normally; that's an exceptional year for him, and many fanficcers make him worse than that. A flaw is not the entirety of his personality.
3) I didn't mean it like that. I think he is confident in some ways, most evidently in situations concerning taking action in the Voldemort situation, and when it comes to solving problems that only he can solve (whether it's true or he only believes it to be).
No, where he's got problems is when it comes to interpersonal relationships; making friends, rather than allies, if you know what I mean.
4) Well, we can see Draco and Snape doing new things to him all the time, and we can see him forgiving everybody else. And I think Snape's biggest problem with Harry is that he's misjudged Harry's character (which is evident in the comparison of Harry to Snape in OotP, and Harry's bonding with the author of the potions book in HBP). In the end he even forgave both Snape and Draco - and Draco even before DH!
5) Yeah, he does stupid things when he's angry - which is seldom. I wish people would remember this. He's not some sort of powder keg. It takes rather a lot for him to reach that level of rage! I mean, the Crucio wasn't just because of the spitting.
In top!Draco/bottom!Harry, Draco's character goes much further away from he is in canon than top!Harry seems to go.
I haven't had much chance to compare, really. All the things you mentioned are true, of course (I especially hate when writers get his family devotion wrong), but I've only seen them in the kind of fic most fen deem a bit silly. Top!Harry is generally unrecognisable as his canon self, and I'm sure extreme Top!Draco is the same.
Re: 135
(Anonymous) 2008-11-11 01:00 am (UTC)(link)I've pretty much gotten to the point where if I'm reading fic that doesn't have only a very small difference in their height, it turns into badfic. Whether or not I keep reading it after that point depends entirely on how masochistic I'm feeling.
I agree-- the initial move is going to be made by [other character of choice] here, if only because Harry is bad at noticing that people have feelings for him. XD
1) I can't stand Harry in OotP, so I just don't read fics where he is channeling his OotP-self. The other OotP version that people like to play a lot is "oh, woe is me!" emo!Harry, which also isn't right. Dear fandom, update your characterizations to at LEAST HBP, plzkthnx.
3) For sure-- most especially, realising that people think of themselves as his friend/want to be his friend, instead of just some figurehead.
4) I find Harry's forgiveness of Draco pre-DH to be one of the more interesting sides of the pairing, and it (as well as what happens with Snape) show clearly the degree to which Harry sees the world in black&white-- good intentions? Couldn't follow through? Felt bad about it in the end? Then obviously you aren't a bad person, or at least not anymore. (Not to get into the fact that Snape was a bad, bad man on all levels who didn't deserve an homage to him in Harry's youngest child. >_>;)
5) Agreed-- that's why it's just a character aspect/flaw, and not the entirety of him. He's not an angry person-- he's just got a huge freakin' temper. (That said-- I don't have my copy here with me [of any of the books], but I don't think we got a ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, I'M TIRED OF THESE MOTHERFUCKING DEATH EATERS etc etc build up to the curse, it was just a OH NO YOU DIDN'T moment. But interpretation of the scene is totally open, and my gripe is mostly that JKR doesn't say it, and that the Unforgivables were utterly okay to be cast in DH, it seemed.
Re: 135
Yes, exactly. It's incredibly frustrating. Every time I see a mention of Harry noticing that Draco is shorter than him, I back-button immediately. If Draco is taller, I usually give it a chance (since that's incredibly rare amongst the recs I usually browse), but if the difference is almost a foot, I know I'll most likely be looking at a helpless bottom!Harry in a little while.
1) Yeah, he's incredibly volatile, and it's exhausting to read. It's not that I don't understand why he acts that way, but it's depressing in the long run. (I was surprised when I reread it and found that he only raged and screamed at people twice in the whole year, though - I'd remembered him angrier. Though fandom's exaggerations may have had a role in that.) And YES PLEASE to people updating their characterisation.
3) Yeah, and since he doesn't make efforts to make friends himself...
4) Haha, I found the exact same behaviour to show the exact opposite! By that I mean that I read that as Harry realising that certain behaviour has reasons, and that surface perceptions can be dead wrong. Seeing things in black and white would mean not being able to forgive horrible deeds for any reason, since a horrible deed is a horrible deed anyway you look at it, wouldn't it?
5) This is interesting, because I totally think it was a natural part of the flow at that time. I've seen people say they thought it wasn't clear why he did it before, and I wonder if it could be about cultural differences? What we're generally used to in our media, and how things are implied in it? Comparing British and U.S. murder mystery programmes, for example (both of which we get a lot of here in Sweden), the storytelling and the dropping of hints are done rather differently.
The unforgivables warrant a discussion of their own, I think, heh. But one aspect may be to show what Harry's temper can do, when he's so provoked. He's not angry that often, but when he gets angry, he gets really angry. XD
Re: 135
(Anonymous) 2008-11-11 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)4) Hahaha, that's why interpretation can be so awesome, sometimes. xD I don't think seeing in black and white means you can never forgive-- at least for Harry, it doesn't. But the moment he's given a reason to forgive, the person immediately is not a bad person in his mind-- in Snape's case, just because he acted out of love for Lily, all his actions were suddenly forgivable. All his bad just got glossed over-- and he became one of the bravest men Harry ever knew. I can see where you could see that as him seeing shades of grey, but I totally don't.
5) I'm not really sure. I'm from Canada, and so I grew up on British murder mysteries, and then started watching American ones when I got older. It might just be a question of how sensitive a person is to that sort of thing?
Re: 135
I just can't take it when Harry is taller, because that means he'll be the dominant partner (I don't know why but it always does), and that clashes too much with my interpretation of his character (it also contradicts canon, of course, but you could say that he had another growth spurt after he defeated Voldemort, I suppose). Since I see him as relating to Draco as to an equal, and that being a really big part of why I like the pairing so much, I don't like him being a "seducer", so to speak.
In fact, I can easily imagine Harry feeling a lot less confident in social settings than Draco would. And then there's Harry's general awkwardness, and him being a bit of a dork (though the dorkiness goes equally for Draco, mind XD). Not to mention his inability to realise when someone likes him, as you mentioned before.
4) Oh yeah, and Harry's world view is really hard to prove; there's mostly circumstantial evidence. We know what he has done, but how can the actions be interpreted? There are several ways, to be sure.
But the moment he's given a reason to forgive, the person immediately is not a bad person in his mind
Very few people are completely bad, though. That's what I mean about him not having a black and white world view - despite his dislike of Snape, he acknowledges the good deeds he had done. He still dislikes Draco quite a lot personally, while being able to forgive and feel pity. I thought it made him see the world in a more nuanced way.
just because he acted out of love for Lily, all his actions were suddenly forgivable.
I thought he just forgave him for killing Dumbledore, though? And a lot of the behaviour connected to him fooling Voldemort. Maybe the everyday insults and humiliations paled in the light of what he'd had to bear? (Not that I'm trying to convince you, really! It's just my own musings.)
And that goes back to what I talked about earlier, that Harry has a rather tender heart, and tend to let go of grudges easily.
5) Yeah, it was just a thought, nothing I really believe. I have noticed that in U.S. media, almost everything tends to be verbalised. But I agree that it most likely depends on individual sensitivity.