[ SECRET POST #4901 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4901 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 72 secrets from Secret Submission Post #702.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

10. https://i.imgur.com/Ubc1Vmy.png

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree in the strongest possible terms. TV shows are serialized! They're episodic! Part of the benefit is that you don't need to know where things are going, and in fact, having an iron-clad long-term plan is often bad! It's good to be able to see what works and take things in a direction you might never have thought of.

Like. I think the X-Files is commonly cited as an example of problems with long-term serialized storytelling, and with good reason. But for all that it had a lot of problems in that regard, there's a really clear line between the parts where they didn't have an overall idea of where they wanted the plot arc to go, and the episodes after they sat down and figured it out - the fifth season episodes Patient X/The Red And The Black are the dividing lines. And the thing is that the episodes where they were just making it up are much, much better. They're mysterious and cool and fun, even if they didn't ultimately add up to anything.

And IMO TV as a format should be evaluated at least in part on an episodic basis. A TV series is not one long movie that happens to be broken up into 45-minute chunks. If an approach to TV making results in making a bunch of really good episodes, then it is a success at least to that extent, even if it doesn't hang together at the end.

[(Anonymous)]

This really, really depends on the show. Some shows are designed to be episodic, some are designed to be serialized, and some are designed to be a mix of the two. More serialized shows really do need a long-term plan, though there certainly needs to be flexibility and willingness to change based on what works or things that happen unexpectedly that necessitate change (see Babylon 5's 5-year plan that was changed around some based on real life needs like cast leaving, but the core plan remained the same).

[(Anonymous)]

IDK. I mean, just look at DS9 - DS9 basically is B5 without having an overarching plot planned from the start of the series and an extremely episodic format. And IMO it's just as good a show as B5.

[silverr]

I think DS9 had the same issues as B5, and was also a mix of serialised and episodic.

I also think creators sometimes need to make adjustment based on the unexpected popularity (or unpopularity) of certain characters.

[(Anonymous)]

DS9 didn't start out as serialized, though. That element was added later. It started out as similarly episodic to TNG. DS9 developed over time. It isn't the same at all as a planned serialized show like B5, even though there are some other elements of those two shows that are similar.

Some shows are serialized. Some shows are serialized and planned. And others are serialized and supposedly planned and yet it turns out they really only planned for one or two seasons. I think this secret is referring more to that kind of show, the prestige kind of serialized show based around a serialized concept where it turns out the writers didn't actually plan past the beginning of their "very cool concept" and it shows.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh man, I was about to be like, "R U SERIOUS" about TXF, because I thought you were saying the show, and the mytharc part of the show specifically, got better after S5. Which I wildly disagree with.

But upon rereading your comment, I think you're saying the show was better before they started trying to force the mytharc to all fit together, in S5? In which case, yeah, I agree.

Although I don't agree that they should've just kept going with no plan, just throwing stuff out there and seeing what stuck. I think they were a little screwed either way. Ideally they would've found a happy medium; some kind of loose but cohesive overall plot to unify the mytharc. And then just let the stray ends that didn't fit in...not fit in.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, totally! My point is that planning (a) is not necessary to make good episodes of a TV show and (b) doesn't always make a show better.

I think the problem with the later mytharc episodes wasn't just the fact that they had a plan, it's that they changed the tone of the show as a result of having the plan - they made it feel way less weird and atmospheric and conspiratorial. There's no fundamental reason that having a plan means that you have to change the conspiratorial vibes. It kind of feels like the vagueness in earlier seasons was just a way to be lazy and not come up with a story, not an intentional choice. Which is a shame because that atmosphere is one of the best parts of the show.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Of course it isn't necessary for good tv, and the secret maker isn't saying that I don't think. But some shows, by there very design, do need planning, and when those writers don't plan far enough ahead and then fumble when the show reaches the point where they haven't planned any more, that reflects badly on the writer. There are also some shows where they did plan ahead and it worked really well. So planning ahead can make good tv, although it isn't necessary.

Hello, fellow secret maker!

[(Anonymous)]

Your secret design is so much better than mine:

https://i.imgur.com/ClOqaoS.png

Always happy to see someone else making comment secrets! *high fives you*

Re: Hello, fellow secret maker!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh no, you made this one, too? This is exactly what I didn't want to happen! D: Unnecessary work and a direct comparison. Damn.

I picture-ified that whole thread because I hoped, since it wasn't started by you, I could just go to town without worrying about exactly this thing happening. Please tell me that was the only secret you did?

(Thank you for the compliment! :D This is an outlier, though; the majority of the rest is much simpler. And we obviously think very much alike.)

Re: Hello, fellow secret maker!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, dear. I think I did make a bunch of secrets from that thread,but I didn't bookmark it so I can't remember which secrets I made that are from there... But you know what? I think it's fine. If yours get posted, I'll just delete mine or put up a link like I did here, and I hope you will do the same? I'd love to see someone else's work!

And if you want to start a comment secrets thread where you make all of the secrets, just put in a heads up and call dibs, and I'll pass it over.

Re: Hello, fellow secret maker!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm in Europe, I'm usually asleep when the posts goes up. But I'll do my best!

The thread is here: https://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/2221487.html?thread=1044498863#cmt1044498863

I made graphics for all of these. Maybe we should warn case? There might be up to eleven repeats in this batch. It would suck if the last post of the week turned out to be repeats only.

And I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to step on your toes or disrupt your process. Or make this big a mess. D: This was a spontaneous thing, because that thread obviously wasn't made by you, so I thought you might not see it, and I was in the mood and had the time. Should I get the urge again, I will make my own thread, so you won't have to worry about coordinating with or working around me. I'll stay out of your way.

OP of secret

[(Anonymous)]

Omg. You guys are rad!

Thanks so much for both making my secret. <3

Re: OP of secret

[(Anonymous)]

It was a great comment, thank you for leaving it!

Re: OP of secret

[(Anonymous)]

Seconding the other secret maker. It was very meme-able!

[(Anonymous)]

I mostly only feel bad for writers when it's like... they had a plan, the show ran the three season they wanted (or however many), and then the studio goes, 'Hey, people liked that - make another season!', and the writers are left trying to work out what to do when they already tied up all the plot threads and brought everything to a satisfying conclusion!
But that's not common.

[philstar22]

Supernatural would be a big example, but I only feel bad for Kripke who had his baby taken over by other people once his five year plan was done because CW just couldn't let it end. Should have stuck to the 5 year plan in my opinion.

[(Anonymous)]

Supernatural is one of those where I just wanna... unplug the life support already. Let it go. It's been long enough, really. Let it die.

Hmm.

[(Anonymous)]

Given the way TV works, I don't know that that's possible for many shows. They don't know how many episodes they're going to get in the first season and then they generally don't know if the show is going to get renewed. If they have an outline for five seasons and they only get to three, people are going to be pissed. If they had an outline for three seasons and the network keeps renewing it after (and they don't want to turn that down because they don't want to piss off the crew, the network, the studio, or the fans and they like working with their crew), coming up with new workable ideas can be difficult. And I think it's a little much for someone to develop a new show and have to have, like, seven different outlines depending upon how long it might last. Also, no plan survives contact with the enemy - just because there is an outline, that doesn't mean it is going to work out. Sometimes actors leave, sometimes they are better at some things and not others, sometimes fans really dislike a storyline, sometimes real world events intervene, sometimes characters grow in ways the creator doesn't foresee, etc. which will leave writers scrambling.

[meadowphoenix]

I only care about this in terms of character development and the internal logic of the show imo. i don't care so much about out of left field plot advancements if the internal logic allows it and the characters remain themselves.

like i don't need a plan. i just need a show bible that the writers are using.

[(Anonymous)]

A good team of writers can take a general idea of a show direction and do great things with the characters based on what the actors bring to the roles and how good the actors are at drama or comedy or whatever is needed.

It's incredibly difficult to determine a long story arc and adhere to it once you have actors bringing the characters to life. Sometimes there's more chemistry between characters A and C than A and B, who were supposed to be the big couple. Sometimes character D is really well loved and the writers decide not to kill her in the first episode.

TV shows are constantly evolving. The worst thing you do is have a strict plan that you're trying to stick to. Conversely, the best thing that you can do is staff proven, gifted writers and hire great actors who will all wok well together. Unfortunately, that's a difficult thing to do when both writing and acting are largely subjective, and chemistry cannot be faked or sometimes predicted.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Also, once the writing team is a few episodes into the season, they're in a scramble to get stories broken, outlined, approved, written, and shot. It's a mad dash by the end of the season to get everything done in the amount of time they have to do it, and that's when a lot of mistakes happen.

Also, the studio and network have to approve the episodes and overall season arc(s). I was a writers' assistant for a show that had a great idea as a way to pull all of the episodes together and make the stories all matter, but an older, proven show was doing a similar storyline on the network so our show was told to come up with a new plan. We never did - we were canceled before it mattered.

Similarly, we had issues with our second episode so much so that the script was being rewritten as the episode was shooting, and there was a breakdown in communication from the set to the writers' room. The writer was rewriting scenes that had already been shot, so he had to make changes in scenes that were still upcoming instead. It's a wonder that episode made any sense at all.

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than you realize, and it's not always the writers that are the problem.

[(Anonymous)]

Is there an excuse for shows like GOT though? They knew going in what story they had to tell and that the ending had to be completed by them because the books weren't done.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for these bits of insight - it’s always fascinating to hear when shows end up evolving (or perhaps sometimes more like swerving) on the fly!