fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #698 ]

[ SECRET POST #698 ]

⌈ Secret Post #698 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[The Crüxshadows]

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102.

[LotR, Merlin]

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103.

[Secret Saturdays, Marvel Comics]

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104.

[Soul Eater]

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105.

[Yotsuba&!]

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106.

[Transformers: Armada]

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107.

[Dresden Dolls]

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108. [repeat]

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109.

[Stephanie Meyer]

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110.

[Spoiler (DC), Edward (Twilight)]

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111.

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112.

[Knights of the Old Republic]

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113.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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114.

[December Boys]

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115.

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116.

[Ghost Hunters]

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117.

[Bloody Monday]

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118.

[Ranma 1/2]

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119.

[James Spader]

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120.

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121.

[Taylor Swift]

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122.

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123.

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124.

[Edward Norton]

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125.

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126.

[The Devil's Whore]

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127.

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128.

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129.

[Arthur]

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130.

[Gankutsuou]

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131. [repeat]

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132.

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133.

[Metal Gear Solid/"Let's Destroy Metal Gear!"]

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134.

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135.

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136.

[Supernatural]

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137.

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138.

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139.

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140.

[Assassins]

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141.

[Heroes]

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142.

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143.

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144.

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145.

[Evangelion]

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146.

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147.

[Gokusen]

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148.

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149.

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150.

[Left 4 Dead]

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151.

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152.

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153.

[Saw 5]

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154.

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155.

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156.

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157.

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158.

[Legally Blonde]

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159.

[Cobra Starship]

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160.

[Harry Potter]

Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 146 secrets from Secret Submission Post #100.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Man, do I have issues with this scene. Not only is Buffy more important to the world than Dawn (and for the record, I like Dawn), but she's using "saving the world" as an out for her own self-hating tendancies and leaving behind grieving people who care deeply about her and are going to have to take up her burden once she's gone. And then, when she's ressurected, she's all, "how dare you want me back, I was happy where I was," completely selfish and not taking into account how much these people love her and feel abandoned by her (when again, she didn't have to die in the first place). I love the show, but I kind of hate Buffy the character after season 4 (and I'll admit I have massive issues with people committing suicide).

SO MUCH fucking word.

I kind of love you. Everyone else sees this as a great sacrifice, for some reason.

I know. Her poor martyred self *snort* It's bloody infuriating. It would have made much more sense for Dawn to have died.

I do think that people who glorify this sort of sacrifice have never had experience with a suicidal loved one (which makes it sound like I want people to FEEL MY PAIN, but I do think there are certain things you don't understand until you experience them.)

Nah, I know what you mean. If it'd been the only way then fair enough, but it wasn't.

Trudat.

Very much so. Mind if I friend you? I have a feeling we're going to get on very nicely...

Go right ahead, s'long as I can friend you back :D

Sounds like a plan :D

The thing you're not really taking into account here is that... yeah, Buffy's more important to the world than Dawn. Of course she is. And yes, leaving behind the people who miss her so much, leaving them to take up the burden and to go on without her, is horrible. But, you know, Dawn is her baby sister, even if she was "just a Key" (she wasn't just that to Buffy, and they made a point of showing that). I think I'd have lost a LOT more respect to Buffy if she'd gone "You know what, Dawn? Ttly sorry, sis, but I'm more important than you, so... yeah, not going to save you. It's more important that I stay alive and you die. So... ya sorry bye. (:" That would be full of shit, and I don't think I could have ever respected the character again if she'd abandoned her sister just because she's "more important."

That said, the ANGST after the resurrection stretched on too long and was a bit too melodramatic, in my opinion, but the reaction isn't an odd one. You have to kind of approach it from a "DYING AND BEING YANKED OUT OF HEAVEN/THE MOST PERFECT PLACE YOU COULD NEVER IMAGINE WILL FUCK YOUR MIND UP" direction for it to make enough sense, though. XD; I don't think I'd be able to handle it. If I died, was perfectly happy and at peace, and was yanked back into what she basically explained as amounting to pain and hell, I'd probably have a sobby panicky breakdown.

Well, that's only part of it. I, personally, would have a lot more respect for Buffy if she could have dealt with the reality of losing Dawn and not put everyone else in her "family" through grieving for her and taking up her mantle, that's the part that really bothers me. It doesn't have to be "I'm more important to the world", it doesn't have to be that cold and logical, but I just feel like she took the easy out while really hurting the people she claimed to care about (well, not Spike, though watching him cry personally breaks me, but how could she do that to Giles, especially?) She might have abandoned Dawn by allowing her to die, but she abandons Dawn further, along with everyone else she cares about by killing herself. She's had a rough year, but that's no reason to make her loved ones think they weren't a good enough reason for her to stick around for.

And yeah, I can imagine that being pulled out of Heaven would be traumatizing, but I was more mad at her for blaming her friends for wanting her back, especially in OMWF where she pretty much tells them they tortured her. I'd break down in sobby tears too, but I'd eventually talk to my friends who loved me enough to nearly kill themselves to bring me back and let them help me.

Gah, sorry for the teal dear, suicide is a really tetchy issue for me.

The thing is, it wasn't a reality of losing Dawn until/unless it happened. I actually began and scrapped some huge rambly meta thing for another fandom at one point that kinda went into this. XD But... it doesn't always make sense. But I do believe that most people have at least one other person, maybe even a group of people, that they'd do anything for, because they couldn't imagine not doing so. I know that I have one or two people that, if I saw they were about to die, and I could get in the way of that -- even if it meant dying -- I'd do it without even thinking about it. I know it'd be horrible, but it's not a totally logical issue. It wasn't fair and it was heartbreaking for everyone, but if she loved Dawn so much that she just couldn't stand there and watch her die, not if she could do something, anything to save her... I think that's a weakness but it also made her unbelievably strong. I'd like to think I'd have the guts to not just be faced with the prospect of "but I would die, I would cease to be, I would hurt and end, better them than me surely?" and freeze until it was too late, or second-guess my actions until it was too late. It was a pretty impossible decision to make, and neither option was good, but... she couldn't watch her sister die. She had the guts to do whatever she had to to keep it happening. Weakness and a great deal of strength there.

Yeah, that was definitely a crappy thing to do. I mostly can forgive it because it does sound highly traumatic, and it wasn't a good or fair thing for her to do, but... when she finally confesses it, it's not like she has a choice for one thing (she was trying not to tell people, but Lol Musical Truth Demon :|), and I can definitely see her being torn between wanting to be the strong pillar that she's supposed to be and giving in and letting her friends know she's unhappy and needs help and support. It's weak of her, but I can't hate her for that.

It's okay, I talk way too much, myself. XD; Suicide is totally an issue for me, too, but I also think there's a difference between suicide and sacrifice, and can sympathize a lot more with the latter because it's not as... unhealthy mentally? I mean that while a suicidal person just wants to make the pain stop, or thinks that no one will miss them, no one will care, and/or the world will be a better place without them, the person sacrificing themself may know it's not at all true but realize it's what they have to do.) IF ANY OF THAT MAKES SENSE.

That makes a lot of sense, but it still reads to me as her martyring herself because she couldn't stand any more loss. I think there's a difference between dying for someone so that they can live and dying for someone because you don't want to watch them die. It reads as selfish, to me, and then when you couple that with her season six personality, it really indicates to me that she had just given up and wanted out of her life, which, yes, was difficult, but she had so many people that loved her and helped her and were willing to help her shoulder that burden (even if she didn't want their help, ala Spike or debateably Anya). The line between sacrifice and suicide is blurred, especially in a fantasy series like BtVS, but if Dawn had died, there would have at least have been a feeling of "it had to be done". Buffy changing places was sort of needless and her using the opportunity to get out at the expense of others. There's a point, I think, where bearing so much of the burden crosses the line from strength to weakness, more specifically to self-centeredness (is that a word?) and egotism.

I do think a lot of this was writerly fault, especially that when Buffy died she went to Heaven. At least when she killed Angel, there was a sense of real sacrifice, in that she was killing the man she loved, there were consequences for her, there was loss. Buffy not only got an easy out, she got rewarded for it, not very much of a sacrifice, to me.

I honestly have to disagree with you here. Even with her conflicting characterization in season four, the choice in the finale boils down to either her baby sister or her dying.

Dawn might grieve, but she will /live/.

And honestly I think her friends are the awful selfish ones here. They can't deal with their grief so they drag Buffy out of /heaven/.

She was dead and buried and at peace. They force her to dig herself out of her own /grave/ and live in a world that is a living hell for her because their inability to let go.

Her friends hurt her and caused her more pain than any villian she fought ever could.

Buffy was supposed to throw herself into the vortex. when she told Dawn to tell Giles that she figured it out she meant that she solved the puzzle and realized that this how is she was fated to die. she had 2 prophetic dreams about it. one at the end of season 3. another at the end of season 4. she went on a vision quest where she was instructed to sacrifice herself to save her sister by the first slayer. and she told Giles that she didn't feel right about letting Dawn die. and that wasn't because she loved Dawn it was because she wasn't supposed to let Dawn die; it wasn't the right thing to do.

this wasn't Buffy deciding to commit suicide because she was a sad girl she committed suicide because it was her destiny as a slayer.

i think it's Buffy's finest moment.

but i'm the rare Buffy fan who actually loves Buffy and thinks heroic and brave and wonderful. so i might be really too biased to see the other side.

Edited 2008-12-04 05:39 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. I have endless respect for the decision she made there and I hate how her friends ad family had NO understanding of what she went through after they brought her back.

Besides, the whole "she's more important to the world" thing. There will be another slayer, there will always be another slayer. She's not the only one.

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, because it's been a while, but...what else was she supposed to do? Let Dawn die? (And I hated Dawn, lol, a LOT, and would have been happy with that scenario, but putting myself into the character Buffy's shoes...there was no other option.)

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[ SECRET POST #698 ]

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