[ SECRET POST #4947 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4947 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 17 secrets from Secret Submission Post #708.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. https://i.imgur.com/ucQKbcA.png

[(Anonymous)]

I don't understand this secret because it sounds like you just... agree that it's sexist and don't care? Which seems different than thinking it's not that bad? IDK

[(Anonymous)]

"...it didn't bother me enough to turn me off the series..." (emphasis mine) isn't quite the same thing as not caring at all, IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

DA I mean it gets the same end result, doesn't it? They acknowledge the problem but they still like/read the books, ergo, they don't care.

[sabotabby]

I found his sexism unbearable in that it seemed to be the author's opinions as well as the characters and I was meant to find it charming. I noped out after the first book even though I was tempted to hate-read the rest.

[(Anonymous)]

I will say that both the writing and (as I recall) the sexism improve in later books. I wouldn't say it's ever good but I think the first book is well-nigh unreadable.

[(Anonymous)]

Harry watches his teen aprentice masturbating in later books.

[(Anonymous)]

Same. I only made it a few chapters. With a few slight tweaks it could have seemed more like the comments were actual jokes or at Harry's expense, but as they were...gross.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought about this a lot when Butcher didn't exactly side with the Sad/Rabid Puppies in the whole Hugo awards debacle, but he didn't have the sack to come out and denounce them and refuse their nomination, either.

[(Anonymous)]

I ghost wrote this post, lmao. Though I did always skip over the sex scenes. They were just so poorly written, it was embarassing.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, same.

[(Anonymous)]

I hate this series for that reason, but honestly I appreciate your take. If you like the books, that's great! I'm just sick of hearing that it's not that bad, so you do you and we'll both be happy.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought I felt this way, but... it's really hard with his new book. I don't know what exactly changed for me (maybe a whole bunch of following r/menwritingwomen, but people in that sub also still read books that are shown).

[(Anonymous)]

If I remember right, the Dresden Files books are mostly (???) in first person. Don't quote me -- I only listened to audiobooks of the first two (I vaguely remember about 8 different types of werewolf and yikes) and a short story from another character's PoV in a collection and that was at least 100 years ago.

If I do remember right, and they ARE in first person, it's way less problematic to have 'male gaze' and Harry's old fashioned thing being seen as charming than it would be in third person.

He's a male character and you're seeing it from his PoV. Of COURSE there's going to be 'male gaze'. In the same way HE sees his old fashioned thing as charming.

If this happened excessively in a third person fashion, it would be cringy, but you can get away with that a lot more in first. First person is personal to the character, the narrator, in terms of opinions, what they see, how they behave and what they find acceptable. More leniency in how you view it is required. It's not just a case of describing a situation, you have to put characterisation into the very narrative and if your character views the world that way, it's going to colour the entire book.

Third person is a neutral standpoint. Unless it's describing how the character is viewing something, it's neutral. If it's first person, it doesn't matter whether it's relevant or not, it depends on the narrator and whether they're going to mention it. Different narrators will view things differently.

Butcher's opinions are obviously going to colour Harry's to a greater or lesser degree, but as Harry is a male character in a first person book, they're going to be narrated and seen from the point of view of a sexual/straight male character and not every protagonist is going to be a perfect paragon of purity. They're allowed to be dicks. Ergo, problematic viewpoints are going to be obvious in the narration.

For the record, I didn't particularly enjoy the Dresden Files books I did listen to. They weren't the worst, but I didn't get into the series on the whole, so don't think I'm a rabid fan white-knighting the series.

I'm a writer. I feel that it's important to mention that different points of view affect the tone in different ways. It's okay to have slightly gross protagonists. They're works of fiction, not an instruction manual for life.

[kamino_neko]

The fact that it's in the first person is actually why it caused me to stop.

If we weren't constantly in Harry's head, I can't imagine that that stuff would be as constant as it was, and I'd have been able to roll my eyes and move on, but since we were, it wore on me.

[(Anonymous)]

Even in first person, you can still cast judgement on your unreliable narrator using the world around them. There's plenty of first-person where the narrator is blatantly wrong and everyone around them knows it, including the reader, while the narrator themself is convinced they're making complete sense.

For example, in the first few chapters of the first book, which is about as far as I made it, there's a whole conversation with a woman in a bar (Susan? I think?) where Harry is mentally describing her tits and how he's too much of a gentleman to look down her shirt, except he totally does, and then she comments on it with a simple "you looked down my shirt, didn't you?"

That scene could easily have portrayed Harry has much less reliable of a narrator if Susan was pointedly leaning forward rather than accidentally, being amused rather than surprised when he looks down her obviously-strategically open blouse. In that version, the butt of the joke is very clearly Harry, not Susan and her boobs.

[(Anonymous)]

Yup. The short story "Backup" from Thomas's perspective, is 95% pointing out how Harry gets led around by the nose by attractive women, and making fun of him for it.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like this is more about making Harry seem relatable to straight male readers in a deprecating, affectionate way, as opposed to calling out how creepy Harry can be about women in general and his underage apprentice in particular.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but let's contrast this to, say, Rivers of London, which also has a straight male protagonist who is led around by the nose by hot women, more than once. The first book, Peter is very into rating every girl in sight - including his best friend and police partner - and estimating his chances with them. The author obviously got some feedback and this and toned it down a lot as Peter got more mature (and after there was a dubcon relationship with a sort-of succubus in the second book.) Peter still tends to think about women's hotness, but it's not the primary lens for viewing female characters any more, apart from his girlfriend, and it's much more interesting to read.

tl;dr sure it's ok to have gross protagonists, but they're pretty dull if nothing changes

[tree_and_leaf]

I mean, it's probably the result of feedback, but Peter is still pretty young and immature in the first book, so it feels plausible and believable that he grows out of it. Also, there's nothing like Harry's creepy attitude to Molly (the apprentice) - I think Peter would be honestly pretty appalled by the way Harry thinks about that.

I don't personally think Peter's gross even in the first book, incidentally. Even if he is thinking with his dick a lot of the time, his actions are all pretty respectful, and I think he's got a much better grasp of where you should draw lines than Harry, even though he's younger and less experienced when we first meet him. (Although I suppose to be fair, IIRC Peter had a much less traumatic childhood and adolescence, and far better parenting, even if his dad is a heroin addict....)

[(Anonymous)]

I felt like Dresden improved by the fifth book (both in terms of Butcher's writing in general and in portraying Harry's sexism). Waiting five books for the good stuff is a lot to ask of folks though. If I were recommending the series to someone today I'd mention how it takes a while to find its feet, and that they should be ready for that.

[(Anonymous)]

"third person is a neutral standpoint" lmao you sure about that

and to have an unreliable narrator their surroundings have to contradict them, which this book does not, so really your whole post just makes you look like trying to flex that writer cred without actually understanding what you're talking about

[(Anonymous)]

Holy shit I can't stand this series. I had always heard it got better as you went, but I made it three books in and fucking called it.

It IS sexist, because every goddamned female character is only ever in the lens of our dumb-dumb protagonist's "hur hur hot lady" perspective. The only one who ISN'T is a cop who I can't fucking stand because the first thing I saw her do is abuse her power to beat the shit out of a suspect over her personal feelings.

I hate every person in this series. All of them have two brain cells to rub together, and the brain cells are actually pizza toppings. I can hear the squeak squeak of cooked mushroom contact in every sentence.

[(Anonymous)]

Is that the same cop who's described as looking like a cute cheerleader when she's first introduced?

[(Anonymous)]

Where was that? I thought the first time she appeared was at a murder scene with no suspects. Or do you mean the first time she did something other than talk with Dresden?