fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #707 ]

[ SECRET POST #707 ]

⌈ Secret Post #707 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

[The Twilight Zone & Rod Serling]

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102.

[Zero Punctuation]

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103.

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104.

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105.

[Aaron Carter]

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106.

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107.

[Peter Parker, Tony Stark]

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108.

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109.

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110.

[Flashpoint; Ed Lane/Greg Parker]

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111.

[Sherlock Holmes, Book & Granada canons]

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112.

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113.

[Bones]

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114.

[NCIS]

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115.

[No Rest for the Wicked]

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116.

[Joey McIntyre, New Kids on the Block]

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117.

[Rolling Stones/Animals]

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118.

[Harry Potter, Ron/Ginny]

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119.

[Chrono Trigger]

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120.

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121.

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122.

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123.

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124.

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125.

[White Christmas]

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126.

[Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl]

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127.

[Fruits Basket]

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128.

[Fandom is Iron Chef America, ship is Michael Symon/Cat Cora]

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129.

[Heroes cast]

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130.

[Detective Conan]

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131.

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132.

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133.

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134.

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135.

[Classic Dr. Who]

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136.

[Randy Disher, Monk]

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137.

[LotR]

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138.

[Leslie Kee, photographer for Asian stars and fashion magazines]

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139.

[Ugly Betty]

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140.

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141.

[Misha Collins, Karla]

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142.

[High School Musical]

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143.

[KAT-TUN]

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144.

[House]

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145.

[One Piece, Team Fortress 2]

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146.

[Avatar]

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147.

[After School Nightmare]

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148.

[Star Trek: TOS]

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149.

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150.

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151.

[Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro; HiguchixYako]

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152.

[The Rachel Maddow Show]

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153.

[Generation Kill]

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154.

[Stargate: SG1]

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155.

[Penny Arcade]

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156.

[Fallout 3, James]

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157.

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158.

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159.

[Digimon Adventure]

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160.

[Supernatural]

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161.

[Weird Al]

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162.

[Jason Mraz]

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163.

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164.

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165.

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166.

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167.

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168.

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169.

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170.

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171.

[RUN&GUN]

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172.

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173.

[Michishige Sayumi of Morning Musume]

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174.

[Life]

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175. [repeat]

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176.

[Cory in the House]

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177.

[Repo! The Genetic Opera/Darren Bousman/Terrance Zdunich]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #101.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Well, in anime fandom lots of guy characters are called bitches, so the term kinda lost its genderedness XD

What I meant by the second paragraph was that in order to qualify to be a "strong female character" one has to be (a) strong, (b) female and (c) a character. Sakura fits only (c). Erhm... let's say Orihime from Bleach fits (b) and (c) but not (a). Revy from Black Lagoon fits (a) and (c) but not (b) - she has not feminine sides except for wearing boobs.

I find it very weird that you're trying to impose your definitions of what makes a "female". A female character is a character who is physically female. Sakura is a "female" character-- she has female secondary sexual attributes (and, one assumes, female primary sexual attributes unless Kishimoto isn't telling us something). Beyond that, she has some traditionally "feminine" traits-- being boycrazy at the beginning of the series,, caring about others, and being a healer are all typically "female".

And I mean, hell, my favorite female anime character is Tenoh Haruka from Sailor Moon. She wears men's clothes, works on cars, is extremely forward about her sexual tastes, is brash, rough, and physical. Even her breasts are barely there except when she's in costume. Are you going to tell me she's not a "strong female, character" because she's not female (or feminine) enough?

You don't get to make that distinction. I'm not sure what counts as "female" to you, but it shouldn't be defined by her character traits. We can disagree whether the character is well-fleshed-out or has agency (I don't think Sakura does), but to say a character is not "feminine enough" to be a "strong female character" strikes me as missing the entire point of the exercise. Strong women come in all shapes, attitudes and personalities. Not all of them are traditionally "feminine."

Edited 2008-12-13 17:26 (UTC)

Don't know about you, but for me it seems quite natural to "impose" my own definitions when making my own judgements ;) To each his/her own, we don't all have to use the same point of view and the same standardised measure to all things. And of course I use my own measures for making up my mind, I don't need wikipedia for that.

And for me being masculine is about strength, courage, inspiration, etc; being feminine is about beauty, kindness, support, etc. Among many other things, of course, but these aspects come to my mind before the others. I don't buy the distinction based on visible sexual attributes, especially in anime (I mean, what about Piccolo? Nameks are genderless and don't grow beards. Still he's a pretty badass masculine character based purely on his traits). Not to mention the abundance of characters whose gender is simply unknown (i.e., never stated explicitly).

If I were a girl, I'd feel really offended if all examples of "strong female characters" were from "like a guy, but no dick" category. This kind is almost extinct in real life anyway. It is even possible to be all tomboyish and still feel feminine (say hello to Maka from Soul Eater and Maki from Air Master), and even then there are much more shapes and packages. Can't say a lot about Sailor Moon as such, haven't seen it, sorry.

Going back to Sakura, yeah, surely she shows some girly traits. It's just most of them are kinda negative (like excessive doubting, depending on others, being incomparably weak), and when bundled with being not beautiful (personally I don't think she's ugly, but she's being portrayed as such in the story) prevents her from being an epitome of girliness. And given the variety of unquestionably strong unquestionably feminine characters, I don't think she makes a good example.

If I were a girl, I'd feel really offended if all examples of "strong female characters" were from "like a guy, but no dick" category. This kind is almost extinct in real life anyway. It is even possible to be all tomboyish and still feel feminine (say hello to Maka from Soul Eater and Maki from Air Master), and even then there are much more shapes and packages. Can't say a lot about Sailor Moon as such, haven't seen it, sorry.

WUT. Sorry to say you are both blinded by privilege and an idiot. I guess there's not much else I can say.

Well, no, there's a lot I can say. But I will sum it up:
Apparently you are not a woman. This generally means that you shouldn't try to define female-ness or femininity and which parts if it are "extinct" or aren't actually "female". Woman in the media are WOMEN. No matter what attitude, personal characteristics, or other non-physical characteristics you as a man happen to think define female-hood, you do not get to define that. I would say this to a woman, but as a man, I am going to me emphatic about it, because this is the sort of fucking judgmental bullshit women have to deal with every single motherfucking day of our lives. YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFINE WHO IS A WOMAN.

Regardless of personality, level of attractiveness or anything else you motherfucker happen to think should define a "woman", a female character is motherfucking FEMALE and YOU do not get to make that distinction when that character is being put out there for me and for the rest of those strange creatures called womenfolk (who may not, and do not have to conform to your idiotic expectations) to either envy or empathize with.

You see, that's why I mentioned those three conditions: both women in the media and women in the livejournal are surely female and some of them are surely strong - the thing is, they are not characters. Seems you didn't notice that, and now somehow think I've insulted you or any of your idols that I'm not even aware of and getting all pissed off at me.

People judge things they encounter all the time. Deal with it. One decides whether something is hot or cold, big or small, ugly or pretty, flat or shaggy, dumb or witty, masculine or feminine, loud or quiet, etc. All the time. Some even go as far as to judge their web acquaintances as being idiots. Some of the measures, like size, are universal, most of them ain't, they are subjective. It means other people have different expectations than you. Deal with it.

This has nothing to do with being judgemental: I never said that women cannot do "masculine" stuff or vice versa, or that it is wrong if they do. People fully conforming to any kind of stereotypes do not exist irl anyway.

Real people are defined by lots of things, and also by what they truly are - it's possible to do a reality check. In fiction, there is no reality, we can base our opinions only on what we see, more precisely, on what is shown to us. If we see a character's ass being kicked, it means this is a character that is weak in combat, it does not mean that it was "sadly underdeveloped". If we see a character that talks like a guy, fights like a guy, makes decisions like a guy and smells like a guy, fat chance it's a guy. If it's not a guy, it's just a very non-feminine chick. Which for me makes her a questionable example. Do you really want to base your point on questionable examples? It's an unstable combination.

Some of the measures, like size, are universal, most of them ain't, they are subjective. It means other people have different expectations than you. Deal with it.

Yeah. Female is a fucking universal measurement, you dipshit. When people talk about "strong female characters" they are talking (as clearly the OP was) about characters who are physically female.

If we see a character that talks like a guy, fights like a guy, makes decisions like a guy and smells like a guy, fat chance it's a guy. If it's not a guy, it's just a very non-feminine chick. Which for me makes her a questionable example. Do you really want to base your point on questionable examples? It's an unstable combination.

Yes. I WOULD base my point on questionable examples, because some women have those masculine qualities. Why would you want to deny real women the chance to have someone who can model other, possibly "non-feminine" qualities for them? I've spent most of my life being fucking butch as I possibly can. I've had people MISTAKE ME for a fucking guy. You're saying "in real life that's okay, but you're not allowed to have fictional role models". Fuck you, man. Seriously.

Ok, now you said it yourself, I don't even have to argue: "some women have those masculine qualities". So why all the wank about me having said that a certain character is not very feminine? In a sense, being less feminine means being more masculine, which should make you actually more proud and more attracted to that character, right? I don't even see a problem here. If you want a masculine role model and don't want a guy to play that part, sure, you can have those "manly chicks", go ahead and have fun. Although, it won't change the fact that for me (and for some people I know) "to be a woman" means a tad more than "having been born without a dick".

I'm not complaining about the existence of those characters, you dipshit.

I'm telling you that you have no right to say "that character is not female/a woman" because you are, in essence, telling any woman who likes that character (or characters with those qualities) that their role models are not female, and by extension THEY are not a woman.

If you don't see how that works, you're an idiot.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Apparently you have some issues that you want to sort out and I can't really help you, so this conversation is going to some funny directions. Or at least every time you answer, you try to drag it there with all kinds of details I couldn't care less. Entertaining, but only for a while.

All I said was that Sakura wasn't feminine enough (you agree) and is weak (you didn't disagree), so that makes her a bad example of a strong female character. Yeah, she is a girl technically, but in a kind of limited dysfunctional way - besides starting as a rip-off of what's-her-name-again from Hokuto no Ken. When I'm coming up with examples, I usually try to think of good, solid ones, because you know, they must really exemplify the point. And the sole idea of a butch having Sakura as a role model is hilarious by the way.

And what's wrong with a girl having a guy character as a role model? I know a couple of such girls personally, they are doing fine, thanks for asking. You have some serious trouble distinguishing real life from fiction, now don't you?

I'm sorry you're sexist and don't want to admit it.

I'll be whatever you want me to be, sugar cake.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #707 ]

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