fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #708 ]

[ SECRET POST #708 ]

⌈ Secret Post #708 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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[Bleach, Soifon]

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[Twilight]

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[Gaang Jr]

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115. [repeat]

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[CSI]

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[Hellboy]

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[World of Warcraft]

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[Venture Bros]

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[Hugo Weaving]

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[DBSK]

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[Keira Knightley]

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[Bleach]

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166. [repeat]

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[sup, MGS genderswap]

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[Farscape]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 20 pages, 498 secrets from Secret Submission Post #102.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Something I've noticed in reading over all of the comments related to this secret is that a Main Problem seems to be that no one critiqued the requesters, or the fic-writers; that the people reading the kink meme passed over the requests if they were uninterested (or disgusted/insert your appropriate adjective here) and did not react negatively to them, in any way, and so all that exists are people endorsing the requests of praising the fic.

I'd like to ask a question:

When was the last time you saw a purely negative comment to any fic, solely regarding the subject matter? Most communities require warnings so that people won't stumble upon a fic about underage incestuous rape; no one replies to that fic with, "You disgust me," or, "How dare you?" -- and if they were to, they would be quickly lambasted by others.

So while I can see the point of the OP, that they feel major historical events are being trivialized for the sake of someone getting off (which, I would argue in most cases, were not the point of the fics written -- and I say this as someone who fulfilled a request that could be possibly viewed as such; but who intended it to be horrible and gutwrenching and in no way hot); it seems the critique here truly lies in the fact that no one spoke out against it negatively; or perhaps that it didn't even occur to someone to react to it negatively. I know that if I saw/see a fic that I disagree with on a moral level, I overlook it -- I don't give it the time of day.

So really, OP, you should be railing against Fandom as a whole, and how fandom culture stomps down upon people calling others out for having different morals than they themselves do. And if you do choose to take up that crusade, good luck.

It's not like non-Hetalia fans said anything either. They just made a secret. Most people probably hit the back button. The only reason anyone is speaking out now is because it's on F!S, so wanking is okay.

I really don't intend to be rude, but I'm confused as to what you mean. Blame my being braindead and reading too much Merlin fic; I'm honestly not grasping your point. (I'm sorry! D:)

I'm trying to say that I agree. Fandom makes unassuming cowards out of all of us.

OH OKAY I get it now. I think I was bringing in different things for "they" and was so confused. Sob. Thank you. XD

And yes. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's what happens.

I have to say it really does. Fandoms (all of them, not just Hetalia) encourage acceptance of pretty much almost any and every kink under the sun. To say that you don't like something or to say that you think a certain thing is wrong or disgusting invites scorn, flames and cries of "Don't like, don't read."

I think anon meant the secret-maker didn't point out the problem with the kink requests either, despite obviously disagreeing with them as much as the Hetalia fans.

My reading comprehension, let me show you it.

This. Thank you.

And if you're talking about the fic I think you're talking about, I think that's one of the best fics in Hetalia fandom, period. So. Yeah. And it is horrible and gutwrenching and effective, which is what a lot of people here seem to be missing -- you want an effective way to bring the horror of history home? Make them people. It's a lot harder to get abstract about atrocities when it's happening to people. The anthropomorphism cuts both ways.

It was just something that occurred to me while I was reading all of the threads.

dsjlk OH WOW you flatter me, holy crap. Thank you very much, I'm honestly floored by your kind words. I don't know what to say. ♥

BUT that's what I think too. It's often hard to make someone feel real emotion about atrocities happening to a nation half a lifetime ago, but the anthropomorphism really brings it home.

I haven't read any of the fics that the OP singled-out, though now that I'm looking at the responses to the Rape of Nanking fic, no one is saying "omg hot!" Everyone is saying "Wow, this left me speechless," and variants. Again, it's a matter of one's personal opinion and morals on the matter; but there is such an intense gray area here to be taken into account -- one that I think the OP did not consider when deciding to judge all of Hetalia fandom, and one that I don't think everyone railing against the people who requested, wrote, and responded to that fic considered either. (Of course, the only fic I looked at the responses for is the Rape of Nanking fic.)

Hey, it's true. *smiles* Good fic is good. (

mithrigil actually brought that one up when I was wavering about whether or not I wanted to go darker places with my Hetalia fic; she pointed out that you'd proven it could be done. So.)

Yeah, it's interesting to me that so many people seem to be using the Nanjing fic as a specific example of "what the hell are they doing?" because the way I read it, that one was so much about the psychological horror and not at all about the kink. I don't know if the same holds true for every example the OP listed, but I think it indicates that people in this fandom are taking the gray areas you mentioned into account as they write, and they are aware of the sensitive nature of what they're tackling, as a general rule. (There might be exceptions, of course, but it's fandom, you always get a couple of idiots. Those people, though, don't represent the majority, and they never have.)

My gosh I don't know what to say. Thank you. ♥

Yes, exactly. I could understand why someone would still think that it's trivializing to do so, but I don't think it gives them a platform from which they can judge someone else. But I guess that's their... prerogative? Unfortunately.

I don't know what kind of bizarre sociopath YOU are, but I am completely and totally capable of feeling horrified and saddened by mass human tragedy without having to read fics about anthropomorphized bishounen acting it out for me.

Also, I'd like an explanation for how "Victorian era racism" helps bring any kind of tragedy to light, or what possible benefit China/Tibet rapefic has, or how Native-Tan getting Raped by Everyone and impregnated really enlightens people to the atrocities committed against them.

... did you really just call me a sociopath?

omg ♥

Thank you for making my night.

Not disagreeing with you here on the effectiveness of bringing the horror home via anthropomorphism, etc...but it already DID happen to people, real ones at that, not anthropomorphised bishounen countries.

It did, yes, but I think it's a question of scale; after you reach a certain point, death tolls and the like become statistics, because otherwise it's just too much to process. And there's a certain amount of othering going on when you're reading about history that also serves as a distancing mechanism. (And I don't think it's necessarily bad that people do it -- problematic, yeah, but if we didn't we'd just have no way of processing things.) Hetalia makes it harder to do both, and that's where it can be really effective, I think. When you make tragedy a personal narrative, it really brings a lot of things home.

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katmaxwell.livejournal.com - 2008-12-14 05:49 (UTC) - Expand

...I don't think anyone is denying that, are they? The point being made about that particular story, which I have now finally read and can speak about with some authority, is that it actually deals with the relations of the two countries, surrounding and in the aftermath of the tragedy. There are stories that speak of the personal suffering of the victims, and there are stories that deal with the politics, and the latter is where things can become impersonal and abstract, difficult to resonate with. Anthropomorphism brings it all back, takes the very human pain of the victims and solidifies it into the figures of the nations. Forget the whole bishounen thing for a minute, and think what the idea of countries as people can represent. It's really not all that shallow, and must have been difficult to attempt, let alone complete.

I think what she's trying to say is that it's easier to feel strong emotions about a subject of you know the victims on an individual level (EX: This is John. John has a wife, two kids, and a dog. John likes fishing, hanging out with his buddies, and pottery. John's also a very nice guy who would do anything to help someone. But John died in a flood a week ago.) Rather than on a large scale (EX: 300 people died in a flood last week.).

It's a lot harder to get abstract about atrocities when it's happening to people.

How fucking stupid are you? Historical atrocities did happen to real people. My god.

No, how fucking stupid are you? Historical atrocites did happen to real people, but that's not the point.

The point is that there are still people, who to this day, do not believe these things happened. Holocaust deniers, the KKK, most of conservative Japan*; ring a bell? And when you put things in terms of people instead of statistics, it's a lot harder to deny what's in front of you.

*And before you start, no one is agreeing with these people or justifying their behavior. It's just being pointed out that, yes Virginia, it's a real belief shared by some people.

I honestly dont mean to sound condescending, but "if I saw/see a fic that I disagree with on a moral level, I overlook it -- I don't give it the time of day" kinda contradicts your first paragraph.

IMO if someone were to come into the kink meme and say a request is "disgusting" well, that would just be mean. Theres no rule in the main Hetalia comm that says you have to read the kinkmeme. If I wandered my way into a room full of unsavory people, I'd just leave, and not give the time of day. Yelling out "you disgust me!" would just make me look like a bitch...

and your last paragraph is one big contradiction. (and funny you should use "crusade")

... how? I'm. Honestly curious!

OH a friend pointed out that it's because I used "should"? I was mostly being sarcastic, which unfortunately doesn't translate well in text. I meant that if they were going to go about ranting about something like this at all, they should apply it to that. Not that I agree with it, specifically; but that they're definitely attacking the wrong thing here.

That was just a personal reaction, so I'm not sure how it contradicts my first paragraph seeing as the first paragraph is meant to focus on what I feel anon commenters consider the Main Problem. I admit I'm entirely unsure of how you think I'm being contradictory (though any contradictions weren't meant, and I am seriously braindead tonight).

I agree -- I think it would be mean. As far as the OP is concerned, I don't know if they think that should be so or not; as in, I got the vibe from reading a lot of the anon comments that it should somehow be all right for someone to call another person disgusting based on what they consider to be moral/etc. And that's a gray area that I'm not sure anyone has the authority to dictate.

... if that made sense. MAN I shouldn't try to have serious conversations when my brain just wants to watch bad TV.

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